United3dArtists Archive

Hi guys!

I've posted this within the tutorials sector, but I think this is worthy a general discussion!!

It seems this forum is small and resources for trueSpace 7.61 are hard to come by. Yet I see immense potential in the program and it's realtime renderengine and shaders and collaborative features. I think it can revolutionize a lot of things, including the way we produce professional products on limited timeframes. I hope to exploit this program to the most, and maybe one day, once I become rich and famous, embark in further developing it. But for now, I'd just love to learn it and trial test it for a small production of mine.

So, as a young 3D artist who love trueSpace and who's learnt the basics of 3D on it's old software, I'd love to document and develop tutorials and content for the trueSpace community and put it to the test. I can't say it will be fast progress, but with a full feature product in mind, I am sure it may bring back the old history of the "rosetta" stone and it's secrets it beholds!

So, here is my Blog! http://ts761beta8std-tutorials.tumblr.com/" !

Feel free to ready the about section of the site, to get an idea of where I'm coming from.

I'd love to have your input, and I'll be dedicating some time in making tutorials for plugins and the like, how to update the programs, tricks and tips, code, anything.

Once I get the hang of this program, I'm sure doors will open with trueSpace here in Colombia, or within other things. I just hope this program is stable enough to rely on with a large project. =)

Thanks again!

Be ready for my first tutorial!

Yeah it has a lot of potential....until now i am scratching my head and ask why did the Roman sell this to microsoft and why did Bill gates didn't see the potential of it. Well we can do nothing about that we just to move on.

do you have the "parva shader", it's a collection of customized shader by Parva.. the gold bar that I created use the parva shader.


http://www.parva-project.de/en/dxspack_en.html the link of Parva shader if you don't have it.

why did the Roman sell this to microsoft

Without knowing the real reason i would say that he was simply broke. tS 6.6 was out of date and didn`t sell anymore. And tS7 was not ready yet. Microsoft was the only alternative to continue the development.

why did Bill gates didn't see the potential of it.

It`s Steve Ballmer nowadays

tS7 is a great piece of software. It is still my favourite modeler. But under the hood tS7 is a code monster. It is everything but easy to maintain and to develop. When you look closer at it then you see that it has more than one flaw by design. And it has masses of bugs. The bones system is everything but working, the DX engine part already needs a big overhaul. The LE is a bit messy. And and and. It is still years away from a final product. The biggest reason though is that tS7 didn`t got accepted in the way they all expected. Even making it free didn`t change this.

Add to that that there was the financial impact, and you have your reason why Microsoft has cancelled further development then. That this happened at the point where tS7 finally became somehow useful is one of the tragic moments ...

DarkScythe wrote: do you have the "parva shader", it's a collection of customized shader by Parva.. the gold bar that I created use the parva shader.

Yeah! I downloaded them and now am trying to use them with the like! Is it redistributable? Hopefully I'll make some tutorials on it's Shaders and how to use them. All with time. It's very pretty, almost a PS3 look and feel to it all.


[quote ="Tiles"]tS7 is a great piece of software. It is still my favourite modeler. But under the hood tS7 is a code monster. It is everything but easy to maintain and to develop. When you look closer at it then you see that it has more than one flaw by design. And it has masses of bugs. The bones system is everything but working, the DX engine part already needs a big overhaul. The LE is a bit messy. And and and. It is still years away from a final product. The biggest reason though is that tS7 didn`t got accepted in the way they all expected. Even making it free didn`t change this.[/quote]

Concerning the above, I tend to agree. It is a bit buggy, and unstable. That's why I'm trying to use the Rosetta version, without the modelside to cut back on the bugs. Also, i hope to minimalize it's features to keep the bugs down. After it all, I think the whole concept in the 3D industry of having real-time shaders, shadows, and other cosmetics with IK based on anchors and true IK free of the constrictive branching (eg. most bones structures in other software I use) would make life much easier. Later in life, if doors open, I'd develop a software similar in concept.

So to avoid using the program as a full feature software and being letdown, I'm generally focusing on the realtime rend engine and character animation and world visualization, also as a basic modeller with the luxury of SSS and shadow and texture normal map touches to your model.

Ok!

Blenders new render engine called Cycles is a realtime render engine that uses the GPU. I`m really looking forward to the integration, which is nearly finished. It`s of course OpenGL based. But it`s something similar to the DX Engine of tS then

character animation

Do yourself a favour and don`t even try to use the trueSpace Workspace bones. They are not finished, and too unstable for productive work. You can do simple posing and very simple animations with them. But they bite you in the moment where animation really starts. The range goes from unstable and unprecise animations, across unexpected shake effects and not longer editable animations, up to full crashes. When you need a free working and state of the art bones system then Blender is a good bet.

Blender "Cycles" does NOT do real time rendering. It's fast but it still needs time to render. The more the better.... Modeling, mapping rigging ect...
with Cycles on would be nothing short of a PAIN. It's initial very blocky
"first pass" and extra re-draw passes which take longer as they go (for better
quality) do not lend it self well to real time anything. It's gonna be a very
good fast renderer but not a real time one. Some images can take 10 mins
or longer for a good final result.
TrueSpace "WorkSpace" ( DX9) IS realtime ! ! ! What you see, as you
model, is what you get. Shinny bump mapped surfaces and shadows change
as you model. Without having to wait through multiple passes.
Because of the type and complexity of the lighting that Cycles can do
at this point in time it really couldn't be realtime. But it is COOL ! ! !

Hmmm... Open GL... even Softimage has open GL rendering with some realtime effects. It does look still too much like a game, and nothing close enough to a final render. It's not that good...... I did notice the clip blending within trueSpace is a bit redundant, but I think I'd need to experiment. I do like the idea of Blender, but it still entails TIME to do renders. But if the time is equally wasted in an incompetent buggy code, then I'll switch the theory.

Do you know why it the bones jitter?

Tiles is correct; the trueSpace Workspace(i.e. Rosetta) bones system is not fully functional.
It is considerably risky to attempt character animation with trueSpace. I do not recommend it.
It is especially problematic when using multiple constraints. The 'jitter' occurs because the Inverse
Kinematics solution for the rig does not stabilize (it's an iterative solution).

Truespace is usable, but just remember it's not being developed anymore, while other applications are.
Some folks have developed plugins and scripts which help increase functionality. You can find most of those in the Scripts forum here.

Don't get me wrong; I really like trueSpace as well. I've been a user and forum member
for many many moons. You can get a lot of use and fun out of it.

Is the workspace (rosetta) bones problem also include the "full" version with it's workspace side?

Sounds a little discourging. But yes, other software is developing quite well. I enjoy Softimage and Vue quite a bit myself. But the only thing close to realtime render engines to trueSpace is the Cryengine, mainly a game engine, and that is flippin hard to get a hold of. =P

I guess I'll do some experiments with the IK and see what I can do and if I can reproduce the issue.

Yes.
The 'full' version is just Modelside (trueSpace 6.6 plus bug fixes), and Workspace side (the 'new technology' side of trueSpace, which is unfinished).
The Workspace IK is not very useful. It's unfinished. So if you want to delve into IK character animation,
trueSpace is not the way to go. Simple as that. Not being negative, just stating a fact.
I had considered creating a functional IK plugin but it's not worth the effort. Very complicated.
You can still get good mileage from trueSpace, but not from the IK.

Rayman wrote many helpful posts about building your own workflow by importing objects&animation from one software to the other. Thanks to Clintonman's FBX importer, you might be able to use trueSpace real-time renderer with characters animated elsewhere, be it Blender or Softimage.

Personally, I'm using trueSpace for its procedural animation abilities and have yet to encounter bugs similar to what can be found in Blender. If you are interested in motion graphics, trueSpace is definitely a tool to keep. If you intend to do purely character animation and you have a DX11 graphic card, maybe it's worth trying MachStudio Pro since they provide an exporter for Softimage.

lysvallee wrote:Rayman wrote many helpful posts about building your own workflow by importing objects&animation from one software to the other. Thanks to Clintonman's FBX importer, you might be able to use trueSpace real-time renderer with characters animated elsewhere, be it Blender or Softimage.

Personally, I'm using trueSpace for its procedural animation abilities and have yet to encounter bugs similar to what can be found in Blender. If you are interested in motion graphics, trueSpace is definitely a tool to keep. If you intend to do purely character animation and you have a DX11 graphic card, maybe it's worth trying MachStudio Pro since they provide an exporter for Softimage.

Oh I'll have to look into that!
I did a quick search for MachStudio Pro 2, which, like trueSpace, was made free... then kettled. It is no longer is on the market, the company fizzled, and the product is no longer being developed, and I can't find it anywhere! Even the pages were hacked and they are all blank! Talk about some jealous larger mainstream 3D software market scared of "render farms = high rates/no render farms = we loose our jobs!!"!!!!

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php ... ost1186899

I'm actually a little chuffed that trueSpace has still existed underground 2 years despite it's flaws, says something.

I'd love to look more into FBX import. Do you have a thread link to it somewhere?

Thanks!

Oh, found the download link for MachStudio 2, technically free here: http://download.cnet.com/MachStudio-Pro ... 98419.html

Furryball is another realtime render engine for Maya, price at a decent value of $999.

In the article below, they say that they'll give links to the MachStudio tutorials if they can find them:
http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/10/machst ... s-up-shop/

Again, it's the most advanced software that ends up rejected by the market

Here is the thread link for Clintonman's FBX Import/Export:
vi ... =31&t=2145
We're extremely lucky we still have developers here...

lysvallee wrote:
Again, it's the most advanced software that ends up rejected by the market

or is the problem a bad business model... the pricing suggested by some of the articles I have read put this product in the high end market which has a flood of competitors... most of whom are well entrenched with their existing clients. Given the learning curve of 3d/CG tools penetrating a new market with good quality competitors with a limited list of clients is just plain tough.

Even with the credibility of WETA partnering with these guys they could not generate the revenue they needed to survive.

When this product was first announced I didn't have the machine to run it or the OS. Probably the case for a great number of hobbyists that would have at least tried it.

It is a shame to see such innovative products go down but the read I have here based on the sequence of news releases is that it was a group that grabbed onto "build it and they will come". Given the economy and the breadth of competition new software (regardless of the market) development is entirely dependent on building a model of your customers and build to suit.

Without a compelling reason to spend the money, time and effort learn something new software consumers will sit on the sidelines.

Yeah, you're right in your analysis. But in one year's time, we won't see any problem with the DX11 requirement and 1GB video cards will be the norm. It's a shame that they couldn't find a backer to keep them afloat meanwhile. The role of a business angel is precisely to close the gap between a developer's idea and the readiness of the market.

Speaking of software development, here is what can be seen on Roman Ormandy's LinkedIn page:
“May 2011 – Present (6 months)
I am presently working on my next venture.”

Wow... Maybe I'm a dreamer but it would be great if his business plan had words like “free... real-time... trueSpace compatible...”

I make my renders in either Thea or Vue today ! While Thea has a realtime preview and supports Blender fully its also got one of the best
image quality on the market and is very fast.. about 5x as fast as Kerkythea..
Vue on the other hand is like an amalgam of all animational files.It swallows next to any animation via Collada or fbx or MDD or Poser or Daz....
Its also almost realtime to use since it has a preview mechanism that renders your sequence in a minute. But it still neads quite some time and resources
for the final renders. All in all though you can render files and scenes with it that other render engines would have trouble with...
I guess you cant have everything in one solution...
Peter

While Vue renders look a little dull to me, Thea's gallery images are truly impressive... Peter, you're an established professional so you can afford to take another financial risk on the version 1 of a software. Personally, I'm just a wannabe who would rather toy with free tools until Thea reaches at least version 2 or 3, and we're sure it's not going to end up like MachStudio Pro. Another good reason to wait is Blender's current problems with Collada animation imports. There is hope but it's likely to take months: http://code.blender.org/index.php/2011/ ... -momentum/

lysvallee wrote:
Wow... Maybe I'm a dreamer but it would be great if his business plan had words like “free... real-time... trueSpace compatible...”

I can guarantee you that free will not be one of the words in the business plan....

Free is the only option if he wants to rebuild trust with his customers.

Well, if it's free, there's no business. If there's no business, there's no software.
If he can't generate revenue from it, he cannot feed his family, pay his bills, etc.,
just like everyone else.

The Business of Free Software: Enterprise Incentives, Investment, and Motivation in the Open Source Community
Marco Iansiti
David Sarnoff, Professor of Business Administration, Harvard Business School.
Gregory L. Richards, Managing Director, Keystone Strategy, Inc.

http://www.hbs.edu/research/pdf/07-028.pdf

I hope Roman's new venture is good for him whatever it is. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a freelance consultant offering his knowledge and experience for hire.

I'm not sure about people new to TS using it since it doesn't have the future that other programs have but it is their choice. A beginner's guide might be good. There is a lot of info. in the forum and around the net but a beginner's guide could collect the best things to get started.

I have not read the paper so I'm not saying it is wrong or right. Well, Harvard and professor at Harvard aren't good indicators but it could be right. I'm saying that the content of a paper may be worthwhile but the fact that someone wrote one doesn't mean anything. You'll find a zillion papers, books, etc. supporting various views on any subject.

Many who support free products are just anti-[insert any good thing here] or pro-[insert any bad thing here]. They will always rebel against the things that ages of real world use have shown to be good for people and support those things shown to bad.

Business adapts to new venues and conditions to exploit opportunities and overcome challenges. Modern information technology, the web, etc. present challenges but also opportunities. Some people do make money from open source and free software. The Blender top people do from a traditional method: give away something and then sell related things (cups, shirts, in this case). I'm sort of trying that with my magazine business. I hope to get people to write articles for free for whatever their own motivations are (open source), present them for free reading (no subscription), and then sell advertisement space to make money. Not much luck so far. I think the MySQL people make money somehow. Music labels, movie studios, TV networks, etc. have often Youtube channels where you can watch their products for free. I don't know how they make money from that but they aren't charities so they have found a way to do so.

Those businesses are doing it to make money. That's not new. It is just filling a niche.

I am quite familiar with the open source business model but it does have limited functionality particularly in resource intensive projects with specific time driven objectives.

Yeah, what V3rd3 said.

It is a functional form of business for some things but it is no solution for most business niches.

Pardon my late updates to my blog, but soon I hope to work on getting some Quick Start tutorials up. Just been working lots! =)

I like the business plan of Vue. It's quite strong, because of it's strong ecosytem (pardon the pun). But their base program is free for all, with some limitations. Then they have a ladder system, with different prices, packages and the like that progress the more you want. It would be great to have a similar ecosystem and business model for a similar collaborative directX 3D authoring software such as truespace.

Considering trueSpace was the first with 3D spaces and modelling tools to be included, i'd say a good and strong ecosystem wouldn't be so hard for artists and the general public alike!!

The idea would be to balance the opensource idea of a base program for all, and later products, privilages and program upgrads that would support the enterprise. Maybe even some kind of club access to different 3D collaborative seminars, traning, competitions, games, items, worlds, etc. Just a strong ecosystem would justify a somewhat freer base program, and later open doors to advanced program upgrades at a resonable price. Unlike blender, targetting only artists, the market could work with also general public with similar services like that of the 3D chat program IMVU.


Maybe some fun tutorials and stuff made with trueSpace will inspire someone to create a good 3D business model with a similar revolutionary product. =) I'd love to for sure, just don't have enough programmers. =P

Welcome to the forum Draise. Your enthusiasm is refreshing.

Draise wrote:Then they have a ladder system

When MS bought Caligari/TS I hoped that they would develop TS and apply their ladder system of Basic, Professional, and Ultimate (or is it Enterprise?) versions.

Yeah not sure if I said "Welcome" or not Draise, but, well,

Welcome!

Saw your profile; looks pretty cool!

I'll try to do 'something' when I have a chance. Man.

Speaking of 3d Collaboration, Caligari had a shared space server network setup, thing.
A few of us setup our own trueServe spaces, but have not had them on for awhile due
to lack of participation. I still intend to start mine up as soon as I can get some LAN cable
run to the office downstairs. Time time time. I still need a time machine. Heh.

Ok; that's all I got for now.

Thanks for the welcome! It's nice to be part of this underground community =)