United3dArtists Archive

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 08 Jan 2010, 18:37

Just musing here really but I am giving serious consideration to learning another package, and I do mean learning not just dabbling as I have in the past.

Curious as to what you guys that have 'moved on' have found the easiest to learn after tS. In my current arsenal are Bryce 6.1, Hexagon 2.5, Carrara 6.1 Pro, Blender 2.5, Sketchup 7. Gotta say, I am loving sketchup but more for teaching product design, not illustrating.

I don't mind investing some cash into the right package.

So, what are you using more now and why? And I realise there is life in tS yet, but I want to use Vray, fur, true displacment, fluids, cloth etc. and eventually I will find tS can't do it. Personally, I never animate so just looking for something to make beautiful stills and ideally a similar workspace/flow to tS to get me up to speed.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 08 Jan 2010, 18:40

I use just trueSpace, but if I had enough money I woulld buy Silo and Vue, or at least one of those.

HTH

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 08 Jan 2010, 18:49

I like the look of Silo but it is just a modeller and I would need more of an 'all in one' package really. Not a bad price at all.

Délé · Post by **Délé** » 08 Jan 2010, 19:11

I looked around too, and if I had the money, I would probably go with Lightwave. It's a complete package and has a bunch of free training videos to get up and running fast. I'm also seeing other programs claiming to play well with Lightwave, which is a plus.

You have a good grasp of 3d Paul. I'm sure you'll pick up any other package without too much trouble. At least that's what I'm finding. Most apps have the same or similar tools, just slightly different workflows and such. The concept of 3d modeling, animation, and rendering is always pretty much the same.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 08 Jan 2010, 19:19

Something that makes tS good tool is that icons you did Paul! Makes you feel that you already know what that do, etc.

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 08 Jan 2010, 19:49

Délé wrote:I looked around too, and if I had the money, I would probably go with Lightwave. It's a complete package and has a bunch of free training videos to get up and running fast. I'm also seeing other programs claiming to play well with Lightwave, which is a plus.

You have a good grasp of 3d Paul. I'm sure you'll pick up any other package without too much trouble. At least that's what I'm finding. Most apps have the same or similar tools, just slightly different workflows and such. The concept of 3d modeling, animation, and rendering is always pretty much the same.

Cheers Dele, I am playing with the new blender and finding it's UI a bit more ts-like. Just wish I could get results like you see in the galleries. Fur, particles and fluids all look amazing....and it's free!

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 08 Jan 2010, 19:54

Lightwave looks interesting. Any thoughts on Cinema 4D?

Changa · Post by **Changa** » 08 Jan 2010, 20:03

Look at this http://vimeo.com/7809605" and think of the tools.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Jan 2010, 21:45

That is beautiful. Thank you for the link Changa.

I'm probably migrating to Blender because free is what I can afford. If I get a good job then I'm thinking of some combination of Lightwave, Vue, Modo, and Messiah. Haven't used any though so I'm interested in your decision Splinters and in the advice from this thread.

Info. at the film maker's site says it is based on "spaces already built". I like the building that opens up around 9 minutes into the film. If that really exists does anyone know where it is?

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 08 Jan 2010, 22:09

I have in the past downloaded the modo 30 day free trial and was quite impressed with it. Its extremely powerful, can handle millions of polys and can render the most stunning images. The interface is completely customisable and uses a tabbed system to take you through the various stages such as modeling, texturing and rendering. Their UV mapping system is a particular joy to use. Modo was also used quite extensivly to model assets for the recent sci-fi blockbuster District 9. The big trouble for me was that 30 days was way too short for me to get to grips with it. Now that modo 401 is out, I think I will have another bash only this time download the full training pack. It costs 25$, or something like that, and the download includes a comprehensive video tutorial package. The cost of the training pack is refundable if you decide to purchase modo proper. BTW, the modo training vids are absoloutly top notch, ultra clear hi-def and very, very well narrated. HTH.

Post by **danperk** » 08 Jan 2010, 22:37

Hi Paul, hope all is well with you!

I did some research and looked at C4D and Modo as my first 2 choices.
In the end I went with Modo and have been very happy with it so far.
It renders faster than tS Vray with a comparable scene on my 3 Ghz Duo,
and has a great rapid preview that shows GI, reflection etc. It has basic
animation but no character animation, but you say that's not important.

You can output separate Photoshop layers with Render Output with many
options like Alpha, Ambient Occlusion, Depth, Reflection, Specular etc.

Rendering Video Demos: http://www.luxology.com/modo/features/rendering/"

C4D is a very nice package but I found it to be a little too Module based.
(eg. Hair/Fur is an add-on).

They both have demos so you can try before you buy but Modo wants US $25.00
for their demo.

I ordered Modo though NovEdge, http://www.novedge.com/"
and saved $100 and I think if you research C4D has a competitive U/G as well.

http://www.novedge.com/products/1773/tab/6/cid/3"

In the end only you can decide what package does what you need.

Good Luck!!!

Steve

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 08 Jan 2010, 22:51

Lets put it this way Paul none of the above mentioned are bad packages.
they are all pretty good..........
Your not heavily into animation so that makes the things a lot easier.With animation you have lots of compatibility issues a reason why i posted
a few threads on Collada import and export.
All you basically would need is a good modeler and a render engine that fits your style.
I can recomend to download a few trials and try it out yourself. Its all aboujt personal taste rather then if something is good or not......
I personally like Silo for poly and Moi 3d for nurbs and Sketchup for making buildings (no Sketchup is specialised its not made for everything but unrivaled for
its snapping capabilities and you dont have to learn much ... if you can draw you can use Sketchup)
The render engine is a lot more difficult .. that depends on the look of what you want the render to have but there´s also some standalone solutions
so you can try it out yourself......
Try it out with trials !
Peter

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 08 Jan 2010, 23:03

danperk wrote:Hi Paul, hope all is well with you!

I did some research and looked at C4D and Modo as my first 2 choices.
In the end I went with Modo and have been very happy with it so far.
It renders faster than tS Vray with a comparable scene on my 3 Ghz Duo,
and has a great rapid preview that shows GI, reflection etc. It has basic
animation but no character animation, but you say that's not important.

You can output separate Photoshop layers with Render Output with many
options like Alpha, Ambient Occlusion, Depth, Reflection, Specular etc.

Rendering Video Demos: http://www.luxology.com/modo/features/rendering/"

C4D is a very nice package but I found it to be a little too Module based.
(eg. Hair/Fur is an add-on).

They both have demos so you can try before you buy but Modo wants US $25.00
for their demo.

I ordered Modo though NovEdge, http://www.novedge.com/"
and saved $100 and I think if you research C4D has a competitive U/G as well.

http://www.novedge.com/products/1773/tab/6/cid/3"

In the end only you can decide what package does what you need.

Good Luck!!!

Steve

$25 for a demo??

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 08 Jan 2010, 23:43

spyfrog wrote:
danperk wrote:Hi Paul, hope all is well with you!

I did some research and looked at C4D and Modo as my first 2 choices.
In the end I went with Modo and have been very happy with it so far.
It renders faster than tS Vray with a comparable scene on my 3 Ghz Duo,
and has a great rapid preview that shows GI, reflection etc. It has basic
animation but no character animation, but you say that's not important.

You can output separate Photoshop layers with Render Output with many
options like Alpha, Ambient Occlusion, Depth, Reflection, Specular etc.

Rendering Video Demos: http://www.luxology.com/modo/features/rendering/"

C4D is a very nice package but I found it to be a little too Module based.
(eg. Hair/Fur is an add-on).

They both have demos so you can try before you buy but Modo wants US $25.00
for their demo.

I ordered Modo though NovEdge, http://www.novedge.com/"
and saved $100 and I think if you research C4D has a competitive U/G as well.

http://www.novedge.com/products/1773/tab/6/cid/3"

In the end only you can decide what package does what you need.

Good Luck!!!

Steve
$25 for a demo??

That a wee bit unprecise its a demo with a bunch of tutorials but i dont like that either.......it should be free !

But most of the videos on the modo site are free .....
lets face it better to invest 25 $ into a demo then not use something you paid 700$ for and dont like it....

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 09 Jan 2010, 00:05

RAYMAN wrote: That a wee bit unprecise its a demo with a bunch of tutorials but i dont like that either.......it should be free !

But most of the videos on the modo site are free .....
lets face it better to invest 25 $ into a demo then not use something you paid 700$ for and dont like it....

Yeah, but it appears a bit cheap to not have a free demo... especially when the software that you sell is quite pricey. Blender is looking better and better in my book...

Post by **danperk** » 09 Jan 2010, 00:12

Breech covered the $25 fee very well in a previous post.

As far as Blender is concerned, you can have it, for free even.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 00:32

spyfrog wrote:
RAYMAN wrote: That a wee bit unprecise its a demo with a bunch of tutorials but i dont like that either.......it should be free !

But most of the videos on the modo site are free .....
lets face it better to invest 25 $ into a demo then not use something you paid 700$ for and dont like it....
Yeah, but it appears a bit cheap to not have a free demo... especially when the software that you sell is quite pricey. Blender is looking better and better in my book...

Your perfectly right i said that in my post i dont like it either ! I got Modo and use it far less then i thought i would.... i also use Blender but dont like the modeling but find softbody and fluid awsome enough for a free package.
my personal taste......
Polygon modelers in general are very good when you use them as such..... and dont start running tons of boolean operations on them....
thats something that always has to go wrong thats why I use Moi3d that much its nurbs and boolean operations dont hurt and are commom practice in modeling there.....
there is a common believe that nurbs meshes are a problem and arent clean modeling and thats totally wrong it gives you pretty nice surfaces.....
All depends on the quality of the mesher...
About 70 % of Pauls work is technical items or houses(Harold scenes etc.) ......... nurbs (Moi3d) are very much more Truespace model side like then anything else....
no comparison to Rhino ....Rhino is no fun......

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 09 Jan 2010, 00:50

This moi3d sound interesting - I have to check that out.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 01:01

spyfrog wrote:This moi3d sound interesting - I have to check that out.

It has 2 free demos one that never expires and is save disabled and another that goes for 30 days and can save.
The new version 2 beta also can save Sketchup files so that you can use nurbs type modeling for buildings etc.
If you have always liked the way truespace modeled with extrusion and revolve and filets and pathextrusion and love to make booleans
its the nearest to Truespace that you can get but its not for organic thats why i got Silo for that.
Blender is cool for its features and very good on paper i just dont want to model with it... its the contrary world of Truespace...
day and night -----
Thats the kind of object that benefits of booleans of booleans most....... thats the way you model with a nurbs application... see example..

Post by **danperk** » 09 Jan 2010, 01:53

At this point that is my pipeline, MoI to Modo, the 2 dance very well together.

It has been my experience that if I lay out some cash for a program, it's
a great motivator to learn it. If you buy programs and put them on the back
burner then maybe you have too much money.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 02:06

danperk wrote:At this point that is my pipeline, MoI to Modo, the 2 dance very well together.

It has been my experience that if I lay out some cash for a program, it's
a great motivator to learn it. If you buy programs and put them on the back
burner then maybe you have too much money.

The more i think about it the more i can see some benefit also for Paul in the Moi 3d to Modo pipeline.....
the swell thing about Modo that I often use is the image ink technology something like 3d coat..... and its got sculpting..
and its got fur now too .. he could use the few other missing things from Blender like fluids and softbodydynamics they are very easy to use...
Peter

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 09 Jan 2010, 09:46

just a good reason to use moi: export of nurbs from TS to Moi work very well if you have the convert pack installed and use iges. import iges in TS from Moi work too.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 09 Jan 2010, 09:51

The real problem to choose: there is too many good soft and we need to be sure to choose the good one before learn more and buy. But it is better than have no choose!

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 09 Jan 2010, 10:49

Great replies guys, all of them. I like the look of Modo but I am seeing a price of $1000 which seems a little pricey as I don't actually use this as my main source of income (sketchup is used the most at school and is free!).
I will look into Moi as it looks interesting. One thing I did forget to mention is that I would have to use nearly all of my existing tS assets to maintain the existing book ranges and that is a lot of stuff. If I had to remodel everything I would just give up.
For that reason Moi might be a good starting point.

Will give it some thought and get back....

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 09 Jan 2010, 10:58

Hi i tryed to dowload the demo from
zbrush ,did not work .
i have read allot of good things about it
in other forums .just a idea

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 09 Jan 2010, 11:14

I have played with Zbrush and Mudbox and found them both to be very impressive. However, the 'cartoony' nature of my work rarely calls for such detail.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 13:25

splinters wrote: I will look into Moi as it looks interesting. One thing I did forget to mention is that I would have to use nearly all of my existing tS assets to maintain the existing book ranges and that is a lot of stuff. If I had to remodel everything I would just give up.
For that reason Moi might be a good starting point.

Will give it some thought and get back....

Moi3d is a great nurbs modeler but if compatibility is your issue you want something to render that opens and can use cob files.
Vue does and its probably in your price range... if you take some time to get your cartoony look into it it can do it just dont start with the presets otherwise
you will end up with a realistic look which you probably dont want.......it supports instancing and ecosystems so you can do hair and fur.. and if you use blender for softbody and cloth and fluid you got all you would need ......apart from that you can start small and ad modules as your going...

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 09 Jan 2010, 13:31

My 2 cents... I am totally impressed with zbrush. I believe this represents the future direction of creating models. The next step to 3D. Problem is, (coming from an Only traditional art background) I just spent about 4 yrs learning about polys, pixels. I'm comfortable with it. Now, zbrush represents a much more natural way to create, and thus I am drawn to it like a moth to a flame. My brain can't seem to grasp 'technical' (coding, scripting, etc), but the 'feel' of creating rather than 'modeling' that zbrush represents is so appealing, that I am willing to start learning all over, now using 'pixols'. It does feel like time wasted (I can't even imagine how much more advanced my art would be if someone had told me about zb back then, where the machine/software does even more of the 'work' than what we are used to, and I only have to create rather than manually adjust every vert), but Everything I have learned so far is actually a stepping stone, for the next step. I like many others resisted having to relearn (like I said; just spent 4 yrs learning a totally new medium) how to... paint, create, but the advantage that zbrush has (speaking as an 'artist') cannot be dismissed.
You mention high polycount Paul. I agree; I am very guilty myself of succumbing to the ease of 'one more division'/SDS layer. But, one Can model vert by vert in zb. It just takes disipline ( but why bother when I can just build up the shape I'm after rather quickly and let the machine figure it out the details. The new zbrush, 3.5, has added more tools towards that end, and zbrush 4 will be quite amazing I feel, freeing me to 'Do' rather than 'adjust').
Ok, this is getting long-winded.
My points: zbrush offers another, new way of 'creating'. Much more fluid, less technical/tedious, and so it appeals to me as an 'artist'. It's more like real sculpting than 'modeling' (AND more like painting than 'building'). -- You can sculpt intricate detail instantly, or 'box model' if you prefer; your choice. - It Never crashes (I routinely work with 3, 4 Million poly models. The software and my computer don't even hiccup. What a RELIEF That is!) -- You can paint right on the model -- There are new tools that makes it even easier to go from idea to finished product, and from high poly to lower poly -- And it's price is reasonable in comparison to what you get for your money.

I still always start with a base model created in tS, and then go into zbrush, but only because I am even less familiar with zb than tS. I am trying to learn more so I can just use zb. It IS possible to create low poly models in zb. Ya just have to learn How. And 'cartoony' is up to you. It's very possible

If it helps anyone ( I am Always looking for efficiency, yet a 'complete package'), the pipeline/toolset I will be using this year is, tS and/or Silo (ts is still the best, easiest interface I have used. It's just next to worthless {if I'm crashing, then I'm not creating} past 30k polycount), zbrush (I can create/finish any model/idea with it), and Vue (environments with an added benefit of animation). That should complete my vision of 'from idea to finished animation'.
Time will tell if I got it right.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 09 Jan 2010, 13:42

I thought zbrush was a kind of renderer and tex applier, what it does really?

Sorry for my naivety.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 09 Jan 2010, 13:53

Hi ,i got the demo from zbrush working.
all i can say awsome for cartoon work or real life
models. Iwatched a couple vids on youtube for
the basics and one from demon modeling ,cool stuff

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 09 Jan 2010, 14:10

I just looked at Mudbox and it is now part of Autodesk and therefore much more expensive. May try Zbrush...it is under 600 dollars...maybe I can get an educational price like I can with Moi, Modo etc.

Out of curiosity, has anyone moved to Carrara 6 or 7 and found the transition easy? I really like the fur tools they have....and I already own it (with an upgrade to 7 pro costing around £90).

Rhino169 · Post by **Rhino169** » 09 Jan 2010, 14:20

Here's one I might look at...for a more interative environment:

http://www.esperient.com/"

Anyone have any knowledge on this one?

or this one:

http://www.righthemisphere.com/"

WOW!

Watch this vid...:

http://www.righthemisphere.com/solution ... -marketing"

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 14:28

splinters wrote:.

Out of curiosity, has anyone moved to Carrara 6 or 7 and found the transition easy? I really like the fur tools they have....and I already own it (with an upgrade to 7 pro costing around £90).

I also own it thanks to the headsup you gave us from the cover and updated to 7 pro.. what i like and love to use is the deformers that let you break objects pretty nicely we are using it on our community project .... Carrara is a nice package and if you already own it ... well its a good thing to learn it well.

in these examples i show you that if you choose Vue as a render engine you dont have to render realistic like most people do and the figure that comes with TS modelside imports well with cob format too ..... its probably the easiest transition for you....
If you make a few strands of hair you can also spray them onto a character and make fur that way pretty easily....
by the way the trees were made in moi3d...
I just composed this together for you so please excuse the pretty rough quality.. !
Peter

clintonman · Post by **clintonman** » 09 Jan 2010, 15:38

I've heard good things about 3dCoat too. They have education pricing of $140.

http://www.3d-coat.com/"

3dfrog · Post by **3dfrog** » 09 Jan 2010, 15:53

I just got c4d. My friend transferred his license to me. It cost 50 bucks to transfer the license, it seems they have a fee for everything. Anyway he gave me the core version, without modules, and it is release 10 so not the newest. But I will let you know what I think when I give it a go, which won't be til after next week, got a deadline to meet next week.

Carrara I think is good too but I haven't invested a lot of time into it, I have 6 pro.

I have seen some nice work out of carrara, if you can master the tools I think you will do well with it. It doesn't look as easy as ts to me, but what is.

Modo is very good option if you dont want to animate too.

I know whatever route you go you will do well because your work is awesome.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 16:12

The hardest part isnt learning the features..... the hardest part is getting your new render engine to look like your old one and the lights
and everything... the textures dont look exactly the same either.....the more you can adjust in a render engine and your shaders the more possibility
you have to tweek it to your style........even if the amount of controls is overwhelming in the beginning..

tylerzambori · Post by **tylerzambori** » 09 Jan 2010, 16:29

I'm not "transitioning" to Carrara, I'm probably "transitioning" to both
Carrara and TS, and Daz Studio in between. I must be crazy.

I really like the interface on Carrara, and the instructions are
really good, and the plugins are inexpensive, and they are still
developing it, and it's affordable for me. And the community is
fairly active, and helpful.

No problems with widgets there!

Ps: I got version 6 pro for free with the Daz studio book ,after which
they let you upgrade it to the current pro version for ..I think
they just reduced it permanently to $99 for the platinum club
members. that's affordable, in this time of not enough work...

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 09 Jan 2010, 16:36

after the choose of all the 3d soft you need, you dream about something with all these possibility in one soft: same possibility of eco system of Vue + nurbs of Moi + sculpting of Zbrush + interface of TS. It is what i want!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 16:59

marcel wrote:after the choose of all the 3d soft you need, you dream about something with all these possibility in one soft: same possibility of eco system of Vue + nurbs of Moi + sculpting of Zbrush + interface of TS. It is what i want!

Marcel it isnt bad to have them as seperate packages and different Ui. I like the stack view of Vue because its much more organised.. Moi on the other hand has a very stripped down interface with a quad view as a default and also works well the only interface that I still havent gotten used to is Zbrush.....
i just hop from one island to the next but it would be cool to have under one roof very true!
but eco system is awsome massiv amounts of polygons billions...of any type of object and ony any type of object including fully transparent so you can have
layers of flying birds....

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 09 Jan 2010, 17:33

Well, my kit of choice will come from :

TS
Vue
Carrara Pro
Hexagon
Daz Studio
Shade
Blender
3DCoat

I still have a lot to learn to make these packages do what they can do as well as my bidding (MUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA).

Until I am on a commercial project that justifies investing more I will stick with these tools.

In addition to web sites, illustration and animation I have a game design I have been working on for a while (ie years) so I am looking at either Unity or Unreal ...

My brain is now full (at least my wife thinks so).

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 09 Jan 2010, 18:09

I hear you guys....in an ideal world, I could just use tS and all the extras i need (fur etc.) would be available plug-ins so i can realise the images in my head. Dribble is good, as is Vray...but they need a few more features before I could be 'totally' happy using just tS.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Jan 2010, 18:13

splinters wrote:I hear you guys....in an ideal world, I could just use tS and all the extras i need (fur etc.) would be available plug-ins so i can realise the images in my head. Dribble is good, as is Vray...but they need a few more features before I could be 'totally' happy using just tS.

If it works for you its a good option.. the trouble only starts when new graphic drivers will have trouble with the old Truespace....
As long as it works it works !

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 09 Jan 2010, 18:53

[quote="RAYMAN]Marcel it isnt bad to have them as seperate packages and different Ui.[/quote]
I thought about Illustrator and Photoshop or other adobe product. They are specialized but with a similar interface. you win time to learn and different soft work well together. but it is the same owner and it is not possible to do the same thing with different owner. I dream of a skin plugins (in the same way with media player) to choose the same look of the UI for different soft. I know, it is impossible because everything changes very quickly. But it is only a dream.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 10 Jan 2010, 06:38

leonregis, zbrush is a different way of creating models. All the software these folks have been mentioning are like what we are used to in tS. Create a box, extrude, move verts around, etc. Zbrush is more like creating a model as if you are using actual clay. You don't select an edge/vertice and then move it like we're used to (but you can if you want), you just 'sculpt' and the tool you have selected does it for you. The equivalent to zbrush is the 'softpaint' icon/tool in tS. With the new zbrush, it's even easier to create flat surfaces (for example armor, car bodies, etc) so it's getting even more like what I envisioned a complete 3D modeling software should be when I started in this digital 'Brave New World'... I do the thinking, visualizing, and when my pen hits the tablet I, just create; the computer/software figures out the technical details.
With zbrush I don't worry about stray verts, bad geometry, or poly count, etc. I just create the art.

I noticed not many of you mentioned zbrush as a choice (splinters, Mudbox, before it was bought out is what I had started toying with. Now, it's just too expensive and from the looks of it, the new zbrush is adding some Very cool new tools). Granted, it's a different way of creating and it's easier to stick to what you're used to (I included

), but if a newcomer to 3D modeling asked me today "What software should I buy to learn to create models of all types and complexities", I'd say, buy zbrush and learn it Fully.
The support group is there, the development is ongoing, and I doubt I'll be left out in the cold anytime soon, like what just happened with tS.
Umm, caveat: unless it gets bought out like the rest of them

parva · Post by **parva** » 10 Jan 2010, 15:46

... but Zbrush is still for the canvas painter. The claying feature is nice but Mudbox (except the price) is the better choice here. It use fully 3D, no pseudo 2.5D and you can paint and sculpt in realtime with an easy to use interface.

I think it's a good solution that you can switch between programs instead of using one major application that needs minutes to start by loading plugins.
It's good to be independent

...I played a bit with the new Vue8 PLE. Cool features but expensive.
Think I stick with Terragen 2.

DanX · Post by **DanX** » 10 Jan 2010, 15:55

I have been playing with 3D for a long time since about when TS 3.2 was released. Never went into it as hard as I am now. But I keep hearing how the new future of 3D is going to hit us (tomorrow morning) and everyone will be just blown away. I don’t think this is the case. Sure you may have software that does everything for you but it will be like the new kids at work now. They are so dependant on the computer to do everything for them that when it goes down they just stand there with a blank look on their face. They cant even get started and ready to do their job they just wait until someone fixes the computer for them. My point is that its not a waist to learn traditional methods and TS is a traditional toolkit. I am all for easier , faster and cool new features but I think developers should make the traditional tools work with extreme efficiency before trying to break the sound barrier with some new breakthrough 3D experience that Walt Disney invented back in the 40’s using a black and white camera that actually used film.

Yes it would suck if that is what we had to use today but I hope you see my point. Think of what Walt Disney could have done if he had the tools we have today.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:21

parva wrote:
...I played a bit with the new Vue8 PLE. Cool features but expensive.
Think I stick with Terragen 2.

Parva if you look at it as a landscape program its true but if you look at it as an alround program that can use you
full capabilities that Truespace has including animation its a different thing(Collada import of animation and rigged characters). Esprit with the ecosytem plug already gives you instancing !
the studio version costs less then what truespace did when it was comercially available.....under 400 $
Terragen gets you very nice landscapes but Vue can also be used for product renders...cities ... (buildings)..... rooms..
Its a plain render engine !
This sample scene that comes with vue 8 took under 10 minutes to render at the size of 1024 pixels wide on a 2 year old quadcore with 3 gig of ram and 32 bit vista
try to do an interior scene like that one in Terragen. Parva I can send you the file if you dont have itand want to test it with the free Ple version....
Peter

richlevy · Post by **richlevy** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:34

splinters wrote:Lightwave looks interesting. Any thoughts on Cinema 4D?

C4D is an amazing piece of software, I think they compete feature for feature very well with the packages from Autodesk. You can buy into the program at the lower end (though I think that is over 1K now) and it climbs up drastically from there.

The only warning I have, and possibly things have changed since I last checked, they have a yearly upgrade cycle, and the punish those that do not keep up with the current version. For me to upgrade my V9.6XL license to 11.5XL is a substantial bit of money, more than the basic program.
I would look further into Blender if I were in your situation, there has to be a compromise for rendering you can use.

My 2cents, and in this economy we all know what that is worth.

Rich

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2010, 18:00

richlevy wrote:
splinters wrote:Lightwave looks interesting. Any thoughts on Cinema 4D?
C4D is an amazing piece of software, I think they compete feature for feature very well with the packages from Autodesk. You can buy into the program at the lower end (though I think that is over 1K now) and it climbs up drastically from there.

The only warning I have, and possibly things have changed since I last checked, they have a yearly upgrade cycle, and the punish those that do not keep up with the current version. For me to upgrade my V9.6XL license to 11.5XL is a substantial bit of money, more than the basic program.
I would look further into Blender if I were in your situation, there has to be a compromise for rendering you can use.

My 2cents, and in this economy we all know what that is worth.

Rich

Even in 2010 Cinema 4d doesnt come with a global illumination render engine and it costs another 500 $ to get the advanced render module that does it.
Cinema 4d is great quality and almost never crashes and loads pretty big files very fast but the whole package fully equiped with all the update cycles
costs you about 1500 euros per year to keep at the most recent version.... ; )
Peter

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 10 Jan 2010, 19:27

Its quite funny but there's some amazing photoreal images coming out of Sketchup, if you look on the Thea site the four or five images from the closed beta are all SU, not a single Maya,Max etc image in sight!

Personally I'm warming to SU, I just need some "make life easy" tools for it lol

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2010, 19:46

nigec wrote:Its quite funny but there's some amazing photoreal images coming out of Sketchup, if you look on the Thea site the four or five images from the closed beta are all SU, not a single Maya,Max etc image in sight!

Personally I'm warming to SU, I just need some "make life easy" tools for it lol

Its not the modeler that makes the picture its the render engine......
it widely depends on the group of people that you talk to if its architects there is a large following that will say the same thing that you do.
Of course there is another group that cant live without Maya or Max some people only see Vray as a solution for rendering some Fryrender some Maxwell....

Bottom line none of these are bad and capable of awsome results.......

lots of tools are underrated.......

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jan 2010, 19:56

Some years ago i worked with a talented artist from japan. The name of his soft is Shade, a powerfull 3d soft from Japan (now sell by e-frontier). At the beginning it was only nurbs. Now it have both nurbs and polygons with photorealistic render engine, physic, fluid, character, and many more...
the new version 11 work on Mac and pc, the soft is 32bit or 64 bit. A wonderfull soft but it seem difficult to learn.
See how the render engine can do here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaHwBTpYhyQ
you can download a mac or pc demo version here (220 mo but the speed is good):
http://shade.e-frontier.co.jp/11/download/try.html

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 10 Jan 2010, 20:27

its the stuff that isn't architecture that really stands out, I know what your saying tho
lets face it a sphere can look good with the right light, mapping and background.

I just seem to have found a happy compromise for what I want to do, I'll use TS as my main modeling software and Carrara for the final scene, both apps are out of date, TS is 6.6 and Carrara 6.2, about the only thing 6.2 doesn't have is post processing and png export, but that aint the end of the world lol

I'll check those links Marcel, thx

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jan 2010, 21:25

Here is another link about shade: one of the most incredible wireframe i have ever see. you can imagine the result with the textures!

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 10 Jan 2010, 21:33

splinters wrote:I hear you guys....in an ideal world, I could just use tS and all the extras i need (fur etc.) would be available plug-ins so i can realise the images in my head. Dribble is good, as is Vray...but they need a few more features before I could be 'totally' happy using just tS.

I haven't looked so close at the new Truespace architecture (that off 7x) but if I understod it correct, we (the community) could probably develop these plugins. The problem is of course that Truespace is a dead platform so why would anyone make that development? If Truespace still was owned by Caligari and sold as a product, then I think that we could have seen these plugins been developed by third parties but now they of course won't do that since there is no money to gain. And the community is to small for any real open source development and we also have the problem that Blender exists - a live and totaly open program so why do anything for TS?

Sad that it was Microsoft who bought Caligari. If another, less wealthy company, had bought it we could perhaps have bought the source code from them to continue TS as a community effort but that isn't feasible from MS.

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 10 Jan 2010, 21:37

marcel wrote:Here is another link about shade: one of the most incredible wireframe i have ever see. you can imagine the result with the textures!

They don't have any english website? My japanese is bad...

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jan 2010, 22:27

The soft is in english. It is incredible to find a people who can't speak japanese today! are you stupid?

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2010, 22:40

marcel wrote:The soft is in english. It is incredible to find a people who can't speak japanese today! are you stupid?

どのようなことを言いたいのですか？

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jan 2010, 23:03

日本語クールです。ご存知ですか？

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2010, 23:20

marcel wrote:日本語クールです。ご存知ですか？

グーグル

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jan 2010, 23:22

YES! it is useful!

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 10 Jan 2010, 23:44

I wonder how japanese talk with characters in the computer, how they use the keyboard???

Here is another link about shade: one of the most incredible wireframe i have ever see. you can imagine the result with the textures!

I think they are still rendering it

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 11 Jan 2010, 01:08

The Shade English site is here. Frankly, it's not very good. Shade has suffered from a poor english web presence since I've been using it.

http://www.mirye.net/index.php/shade-3d/shade-standard"

Here is the forum, it's a friendly place.

http://www.shade3donline.com/forum/"

Shade is an excellent 3d program, and the standard version of the upcoming 10.5 has more extensive compositing channels than even lightworks (one reason I'm finding it so hard to find an alternative to it). I'm not sure why you would use a renderer these days that didn't have this feature.

I will probably get 10.5 standard (it's only $300), when it's released, and use it as a my main app along with truespace and Blender/ Vray.

Terragen 2 looks awesome as well, it's been ages since I looked at this program, thanks for the heads up.

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 11 Jan 2010, 13:41

nigec wrote:Its quite funny but there's some amazing photoreal images coming out of Sketchup, if you look on the Thea site the four or five images from the closed beta are all SU, not a single Maya,Max etc image in sight!

Personally I'm warming to SU, I just need some "make life easy" tools for it lol

Sketchup is fantastic and I tried the Vray demo for it which is good (and much cheaper than other packages).

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 11 Jan 2010, 17:30

Shade 8 and 8.5 pro have been on a couple of cover discs in the last few months so keep your eyes peeled.....

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 11 Jan 2010, 19:58

My gargantuan collection of 3D World cover discs has a few different copies of shade. Isn't this the one that used to have the simple draw feature; you drew an outline and it instantly attempted to make a 3D shape out of it?

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 11 Jan 2010, 20:43

I do not know much about Shade other than I have a copy should I run out of packages to learn....

I had a cursory look at the UI and menus and it appears to be well suited to those having a lot of 3d experience.... reference terms in the menu system are either mathematical, physics or computer scientist oriented...

I think largely due to the literal nature of translation from Japanese.

Like all packages Shade has some marvelous demos etc.... if you want to work in Japan it may be a package worth considering as I believe it is quite widely used in studios there.

If I remember correctly from the Califorums transient is/was a Shade user... hopefully he will pop by to tell us more ... (hint hint....

)

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 12 Jan 2010, 00:01

Isn't this the one that used to have the simple draw feature; you drew an outline and it instantly attempted to make a 3D shape out of it?

It comes with a plugin that's a cut down version of e-frontier's magisketch modeler, originally made for kids. It's kind of like Easytoy, and a few others.

Shade proper is mainly known for it's curve modeling and quality raytracing.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 12 Jan 2010, 17:13

splinters wrote:
nigec wrote:Its quite funny but there's some amazing photoreal images coming out of Sketchup, if you look on the Thea site the four or five images from the closed beta are all SU, not a single Maya,Max etc image in sight!

Personally I'm warming to SU, I just need some "make life easy" tools for it lol
Sketchup is fantastic and I tried the Vray demo for it which is good (and much cheaper than other packages).

Not only is Sketchup fantastic and the Vray is good what I heard .... there will be a very good exporter for Thea from the same people who made
the exporter for keryetha will support instancing so that a component will only be 1 instance. if you got a scene with hundreds of the same components like windows in a building you can render things that you cant do with another technique.
Even more if you use an unbiased setting like Mlt bpt that doesnt have to load the whole scene into memory at once.....
But at the cost of long rendertimes but better then not at all...
(exporter works with the free version of sketchup)
I posted a thread about instancing from Truespace objects with sketchup in the old forums...
Peter

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 12 Jan 2010, 18:13

Yeah I have the Kerkthea exporter, SU is one of those programs from first sight, doesn't seem to do a great deal, but it does some great models
I just wish it had a regular type gizmo for rotating stuff

splinters · Post by **splinters** » 12 Jan 2010, 19:55

nigec wrote:Yeah I have the Kerkthea exporter, SU is one of those programs from first sight, doesn't seem to do a great deal, but it does some great models
I just wish it had a regular type gizmo for rotating stuff

Works beautifully with a Spacenavigator too!

noko · Post by **noko** » 13 Jan 2010, 06:56

Mondo has caught my eye but also Lightwave Core which is a work in progress, ahmmm kinda like WS side of tS with similar sounding ideas for structure. So I've been putting it off and just enjoying tS while I can which still has allot of potential and ability. With Core, do I want to invest into that program? Basically one becomes a paid Beta tester as in one pays to get access to Core's developement and one pays yearly to do this while the program expands. Of course Lightwave 9.6 comes along with it, all the old stuff bridged to Core

, good god this sounds like tS model side and WS meaning I would be learning both and knowing that the old stuff will be going away or ahmmm maybe all of it will go away in the future

. On top of that the endless discussions in how the old is better then the new and visa versa, hmmmmmm.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Jan 2010, 15:32

Hmm, not that I can get anything that isn't free but Lightwave was looking good for "when I get a better job". With the workspace-ification of LW I'd wait until it is all stabilized, non-beta has some time behind it, old version is gone, to decide on that one.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 13 Jan 2010, 17:25

Hi can someone tell me if Carrara 7 pro is
good ,i have tryed the demos from zbrushang
3dcoat and still prefer ts and is the ui as simple as ts.
can not find a demo ,and not sure how to buy it
here in germany
thanks Ralph

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 13 Jan 2010, 19:10

I think to buy trueSpace 8 next year.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 13 Jan 2010, 19:43

me to when v ray is standard with it
and model side is combined with work pace
and very stable

maybe easier to kiss the popes a.....

Jimmer · Post by **Jimmer** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:52

I got Carrara 6.2 Pro for FREE in a magazine. It's really a fantastic app.
Very good renderer, great custom landscape generation with trees, hair/motion,
partical and water effects, great sub-division surface modler and it's
STABLE. I hear it works well under Win7 too.... Couldn't beat it for the
price. In fact I like it so much (gott'en used to it) I'm leaning on getting
Carrara 8 when it's released.

Also, I don't think anyone could go wrong with either Modo (which still needs
some things) or LightWave.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 14 Jan 2010, 16:54

Jimmer wrote:I got Carrara 6.2 Pro for FREE in a magazine. It's really a fantastic app.
Very good renderer, great custom landscape generation with trees, hair/motion,
partical and water effects, great sub-division surface modler and it's
STABLE. I hear it works well under Win7 too.... Couldn't beat it for the
price. In fact I like it so much (gott'en used to it) I'm leaning on getting
Carrara 8 when it's released.

Also, I don't think anyone could go wrong with either Modo (which still needs
some things) or LightWave.

We have gone through all the packages out there that are within our reach and yet I have to find one that you would go wrong with.
It more a question of what features do i want to use and what workflow is nearest to my own......
Quite frankly i dont find that many flaws in any of them....
If you want to know what is next after TS you got to look into the detail and see what you want the software to do for you.
A reason why i posted some of the threads to show some possible and viable workflow(seee my collada export threads).
Since Ts isnt dead yet its also good to look at what files open from Ts in which application and do they also support animation....
Peter

Jimmer · Post by **Jimmer** » 15 Jan 2010, 13:47

In fact, my tS6.6 is a LONG WAY from dead.... I will drag that app.
bit by bit as far into the future as possible.

compPanda · Post by **compPanda** » 15 Jan 2010, 21:44

Jimmer wrote:In fact, my tS6.6 is a LONG WAY from dead.... I will drag that app.
bit by bit as far into the future as possible.

True, but there is some issues with ts 6.6. It seam to use an non standard way for windows and panels. For instance, try to use TS 6.6 or any other TS from 4-6 in Wine (a software library that enables you to run some Windows software under Linux). This works but you will have trouble with some Windows and panels. Since Truespace isn't a large software so haven't the Wine project tried to adjust this problems. However, if Caligari had used a more standardized approach here this shouldn't have been necessary either.

How is this an issue for the Windows user? None as it is now. But it might become. Microsoft wants to get rid of the Win32 API because it is security problem and the one who originally wrote it have long since left Microsoft so they have a competence problem around it. The problem is of course that almost all Windows software is written against Win32, like Truespace 6.6 was. So the solution from Microsoft will probably be to virtualize Win32 or they will use some other technology to make it less central for Windows and more secured.

The problem here will probably be how complete and good this implementation will be. Software that follows the Win32 coding to the letter will most probably work but since Truespace has troubles with Wine (which implements most off Win32, like 99%) we can probably anticipate problems for Truespace in Windows also when MS wants to leave Win32. So while TS 6.6 works fine now in Windows XP, Vista and Windows 7 we might not be sure that it does in Windows 8 or 9.

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