United3dArtists Archive

froo · Post by **froo** » 04 Jun 2010, 16:27

Just wondering how many folks use Workspace side of trueSpace,
that also use this forum. Please vote at your convenience.

Thanks!

Froo

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 05 Jun 2010, 15:56

i checked the 75% option. But actually I use 90% of model and 10% workspace.

froo · Post by **froo** » 05 Jun 2010, 16:17

Thanks bitkar. I am just interested in getting a 'headcount' so to speak.

Basically, given the rather large list of complaints against the Workspace,
the workflow, the LE is required for using Workspace, it's a *GEEK* tool/only for *GEEKS*
(read: Not Artists), the UV mapper is hosed, etc., I've gotten the impression that Workspace is really not that desirable to artists.

So, I was trying to determine if there is really any point in investing time
and effort making any more plugins for the Workspace side. After all,
if it's that bad, what's the point in wasting time making plugins, if no one
will use them? Please bear in mind I'm not trying to spark another debate
about Workspace vs. 6.6; it is what it is. I am just trying to estimate whether
it's worth the time and effort to make any more plugins.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 05 Jun 2010, 16:49

Workspace definitely continues to need help to sustain itself and there are great strides being made.

I still use the workspace side to quickly create model meshes. But, if I need the functionality of tools from the model side I hop over to use them.

If you are trying to decide on developing plugins for TS I think the answer really comes from what you expect in return. If you value contributing to this community creating plugins for the workspace are still valued by many of the members. If you are hoping to generate revenue I don't believe there is enough demand to earn the income to justify the effort.

If enough developers were to get together to work through making plugin development a sustainable business it could possibly be done but the chances of succeeding would be slim.

A critical mass of devs is needed with a direction for the product before such an enterprise should be entertained.

The fact that this has not happened probably answers your question better than I can.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 05 Jun 2010, 18:51

Roman is gone.
Norm is gone.
Tom G is gone.
Vray is broken and never fixed.
23 replies from 657 members and millions of copies downloaded of trueSpace should tell you
something. If you feel like YOU get something out of it then create all the plug-ins you can.
I certainly appreciate your efforts and utilize your improvements. We all have time and effort
invested in this software. Don't waste your time on account of us. trueSpace is and has been
dead. We are just trying to keep it useful. Other plug-in developers have told me they quit because
nobody cares.
I come here everyday, I know who is the real trueSpace loyalist and the bottom feeders.
I have offered to fund plug-in development many times to many people to help all the loyalist. However
if your heart is not in it then don't do it.
I planned to keep this place going for two years. This is year one people. If you want to keep us alive
I strongly suggest you start showing it.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:00

Why i use modelside?
1 - Realtime render is a good thing to model. Workspace Realtime shader are not compatible with other render engine and it is a lack of time to try to have a good realtime render if you need to use your work for other thing. It is my case.
2 - I don't like offline render engine for personal reason and prefer an integrated render engine as lightwork on model side. My next software will have an integrated render engine. I don' know what soft will be the next.
These critics are only for my personnal use. I understand people who prefer Workspace. we have not the same need or feeling.
I will continue to use TS modelside until it is no longer possible. Not the case today. To late to start learning workspace now. I will spend my energy into something more sustainable.

Wigand · Post by **Wigand** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:07

TS is dead, but:

As long as you can use TS, it will be used.
As long as it is easier to use TS than Blender, it will be used.

I have not the money to buy an other software ( I often use Silo do do modeling).

Plugins are still needed. (DesignDevil is still creating plugins for Modeler.)

I think the times are gone to get money for plugins, because TS is free.
But if you like to make new plugins, you can learn much. Much things you
can also use for other 3D programs.

When I remember the old days of TS, I see many artists who were able to make
pictures I would never be able to do. And these pictures were made with
old versions of TS. So I say, it is not the software, but it is the artist who
make good pictures. We know the limits of TS. As long as there are
people who work with this limited software, so long TS will live.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:17

@ Wigand:
Software is not a garment that is thrown because it is no longer fashionable. The artists just want to master their tools to work freely. I always said that the last users of TS will be artists. The first to go are geeks.
Between the two there are those who have the courage to learn several software per year. But this does not last long because it can be exhausting and frustrating after many years. Mastering and create are things more rewarding.

froo · Post by **froo** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:22

thanks for the replies guys.
I am not in it for money. I enjoy making scripts and plugins,
as long as they are put to use. But if Workspace is too much
of a hassle to use, then I'd be wasting my time, rather than
be productive. However, if people can use them, then it would
be worthwhile. I just don't want to blow away the little free time
I have, 'chasing windmills'.

Workspace is of course a beta, forever frozen in time. Still chock full of problems and
limitations, so there's only so much mileage we can squeeze out
of a half baked product. No matter how solid a plugin is, it's only
as good/useful as the core product. Nonetheless, it's still a good
proving ground for concepts and ideas.

froo · Post by **froo** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:23

@Marcel:

Why are the 'geeks' the first to go? I don't get it....
I guess I'm a 'geek', but I'm still here! So can you clarify please?

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 05 Jun 2010, 20:40

I still use 6.6 more than I do 7.61 modelside, really the only time I use 7.61 is with dribble and HDRI, but Dribble proved to less than ideal, infact a year on I bought I'll even bother getting another free licence for 3Delight.
I was always happy with the older TS so when the news came nothing actually changed for me, I've branched out which I think I would of done away, if TS 8 focused on workspace I wouldn't gone with it.
Whether 'm an artist who knows, I just do my sh*t some people like it lol
As far as the forum goes, I visit most day but I've been busy with Thea but mostly scenes useful for beta testing, not really eye candy

Post by **danperk** » 05 Jun 2010, 21:18

This word comes from English dialect geek, geck: fool, freak; from Low German geck, from Middle Low German. The root geck still survives in Dutch gek: crazy, and in the Alsatian word Gickeleshut: geek's hat, used in carnivals.Formerly, the term referred to a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usually includes biting the head off a live chicken, bat, snake or bugs.

This is why I call the internet the world wide agenda (wwa), group think & very little that's original. Tiny views
from tiny minds.

Another geek has left the building.....

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 05 Jun 2010, 22:04

froo wrote:@Marcel:
Why are the 'geeks' the first to go? I don't get it....
I guess I'm a 'geek', but I'm still here! So can you clarify please?

To avoid any confusion, a geek (as seen from France) is a person who want the latest news. It is still too early for a geek to abandon TS, especially if there are still new plugins. A geek can be faithful to a soft but his attention is quickly brought to the news. It is therefore more likely to abandon an old app. An artist thinking about having a free mind to create. when he mastering tool, it will keep longer. Maybe a programmer who makes plugins is closer to an artist because he knows the software and feel effective in his work. He likes the good work as an artist. It may be a geek and faithful. But it is a minority.

froo · Post by **froo** » 06 Jun 2010, 00:32

@marcel:

Ok; was just wondering what you meant. Thanks.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 06 Jun 2010, 02:03

Despite the limitations of the workspace side there is still some fun to be had there.

I am working through the sdk as a hobby interest as I have VS2005. I am going to try to retrofit dribble's functionality into VS2005 to create a tool for the various Renderman compliant open source engines like Aqsis, Pixie.

This will take me quite some time but I think that what dribble offered us is of great value should be available in the future.

I am hoping to get acquainted with the model side as well. I have wanted to build a cityscape generator for some time and hope to get at this little project as well.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 06 Jun 2010, 02:16

Caligari cruelly left it's users with a lot of baggage with the demise of truespace. The fact that both Vray and Dribble were abandoned has caused a huge headache for me. If Dribble gets fixed in the future I would be very happy, I still think it was the best thing to happen to truespace in it's last days. I don't have the skills to do this, though.

While the modeler side will always be my favourite aspect of truespace, I'm still interested in the real-time work being done in the DX renderer. I would like to have a look at it a bit more closely, given some of the things I've seen from Prodigy and Parva.

I would still be very tempted by a rendering solution that involved zero rendering time, especially for concept or product visualizations. So truespace is far from dead for me, although I can understand why it would be for others.

I've got very little interest in the trueplay stuff, but that's just me.

Why you would bother coming to these forums if truespace isn't your interest I have no idea........

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 06 Jun 2010, 09:23

I think my main interest in these forums is the other members. We have all gone through the heartache of Caligari's sale to MS and most of us continue to use TS in some way and most of us are heading toward the same or similar replacements. It is true that TomG and others whose company we enjoyed are no longer involved with us but I hope that someday that changes. Many of the seniors from the TS forum still lurk here at least and some still fire off plugins and scripts they are willing to share.

I think over time this forum will start to show increased discussion of other software packages. At present it seems to be more focussed on mutual support in deciding which packages to use.

I used to work in the IT department and often found myself having to remind clients that the technology we used was just wires, plastic and cathode ray tubes (oops... carbon dated myself there

. The thing that made the technology valuable was the people that used it. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion. The list of members of this forum that continue to inspire and educate seems to be pretty solid. We even have the next generation lining up (right Leon!!!!! ).

Keep smiling guys... it seems to be something we are pretty good at.

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 06 Jun 2010, 09:30

Steinie wrote: 23 replies from 657 members and millions of copies downloaded of trueSpace should tell you
something. .... Don't waste your time on account of us. trueSpace is and has been
dead.

I think the stats from the servers that host trueSpace plugins are more significant than a poll on a forum. On my tsx archive page that only hosts 25 tsx, I can see that at least 3 plugins are downloaded every day !
And DesignDevil's stats from his exhaustive tsx list are probably showing more encouraging results

So I think it could be interesting to compare the number of downloads of Workspace plugins vs Modeler plugins.

Clinton, you host plugins for both Modeler and Workspace ; do you have some stats that tell the number of downloads from your site for each category ?

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 06 Jun 2010, 10:58

I don't use the workspace side but it would be nice if the good looking icons could be switched.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 06 Jun 2010, 11:17

There is still a good thing since TS is officialy "dead": most of we are more interesting in many other software. We have more infos about the 3d world. this opening enriched the forum. United3dArtists must be united3dIdeas and United3dSoftware. Grief is long gone. Only the quality of the content of this Forum will ensure its future.
I do not like forums that are too elitist. A bit like those ridiculous feuds between Mac and PC that we see too often on the Internet.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Jun 2010, 20:39

froo wrote:@Marcel:

Why are the 'geeks' the first to go? I don't get it....
I guess I'm a 'geek', but I'm still here! So can you clarify please?

Half hollywood is a group of geeks if you look into that logic.....

!
There are hundreds of people who now work for very big studios who have started with Truespace many years ago

Software comes and software goes.... whatever works for you that gets the job done is right.
There´s nothing fancy about using software..........
But what I learned over the years is that you will never find a software thats fits 100 % to your workflow......or has a 100 %
UI............ you got to learn and adopt new stuff... you wont be able to taylor the software.......
You got to take your time and wrap your head around new stuff.....
Peter

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 06 Jun 2010, 20:51

Contemplating my inner geek.....

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Jun 2010, 21:08

v3rd3 wrote:Contemplating my inner geek.....

Like I said you got to wrap your head around new stuff......

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 07 Jun 2010, 07:16

as long as somebody is still using trueSpace, it is not dead, even if there are no future new versions... plugins and stuff will keep it going for a while with new things but it will still be used for some time to come ...

LONG LIVE TRUESPACE!!!

[...and so does PCs

...]

Ps. Can't wait to see what you come up with v3rd3 and DD's new plugins are still being churned out, GREAT WORK ALL YOU PLUGIN GUYS! We owe you many thanks!

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 07 Jun 2010, 07:29

Don't thank me yet.... I still have a lot of work to do to get started.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 07 Jun 2010, 09:51

v3rd3 wrote:Contemplating my inner geek.....

Do you mean we must to be open to see the future? I think it will be difficult to follow for those who are closed. But some are afraid of a dark future.

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 07 Jun 2010, 14:37

froo wrote:Thanks bitkar. I am just interested in getting a 'headcount' so to speak.

Basically, given the rather large list of complaints against the Workspace,
the workflow, the LE is required for using Workspace, it's a *GEEK* tool/only for *GEEKS*
(read: Not Artists), the UV mapper is hosed, etc., I've gotten the impression that Workspace is really not that desirable to artists.

So, I was trying to determine if there is really any point in investing time
and effort making any more plugins for the Workspace side. After all,
if it's that bad, what's the point in wasting time making plugins, if no one
will use them? Please bear in mind I'm not trying to spark another debate
about Workspace vs. 6.6; it is what it is. I am just trying to estimate whether
it's worth the time and effort to make any more plugins.

To be more acurate - I dont like workspace either, I use it only to take advantage of things that are not present in modeler :)
I love old good tS UI. Everything is where you need it and there is nothing you dont need. Just perfect, main reason why I fell in love with tS.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 07 Jun 2010, 15:18

I'll explain the way I use trueSpace and his workspace and model side.

I do almost all objects in the workspace, I use about just 5% of model side to model (fillet tool, and others). So when those objects are finished, I turn off the bridge (to make scenes occupy less and TS run faster) and then I just organize the scene in the modelside and also texture it there (what takes a lot of time) since I don't have V-ray. If I want to put any other object there, I create a new scene and do it on the workspace, then I save it and load into that scene.

So I think it's 50%/50%

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » 07 Jun 2010, 16:48

TS is dead no discussion.

I don't care to learn workside. I still use ts 6.6 because I'm used to it and have, after some years, learned to use it. If there was a TS8 i would learn to use workspace. I think there is lot of power in it. The workspace I mean. The next problem is to learn a new software instead of TS. The big problem, I think is to choose. Maybee Maya (to expensive).

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 07 Jun 2010, 18:02

tS is NOT DEAD, tommy! You just said you are still using it so it can't be dead...

like I said before, if it is still use by just 1 person, it is still alive...

you could say that future development of tS is dead but not tS

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 07 Jun 2010, 18:24

To paraphrase Uncle Frank:
'tS isn't dead, it just smells funny.'

The artist in me prefers 6.6/ Model, but the pragmatist in me realizes that the things in 7 such as the Link Editor really expanded the scope of what tS is capable of doing. It wasn't 'my bag', but I do realize how powerful it is in the hands of someone who can grok it.

re: tS 8
“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

John Greenleaf Whittier

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 07 Jun 2010, 18:45

"tS is NOT DEAD, tommy! You just said you are still using it so it can't be dead..."

If you have a tree house in a dead tree, the tree is used but still DEAD.

tS is Dead. Like the parrot.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 07 Jun 2010, 19:31

That Norwegian Blue... it's just pining for the fjords.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:15

marcel wrote:
v3rd3 wrote:Contemplating my inner geek.....
Do you mean we must to be open to see the future? I think it will be difficult to follow for those who are closed. But some are afraid of a dark future.

I agree we need to be open to see the future. A closed mind will only take the next step on the path it is on and never look for new ways to move ahead.

The message I intended for my post was that there is nothing wrong with being a geek as long as you don't take yourself too seriously.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:25

TS will become less important in our tool kits as time passes. Sooner for some than others. This forum was made to keep a good bunch of people from the old Caligari forums together. New people, who fit right in, have joined too. Even as TS fades from importance remember that this is really about the people and will continue to be a good place to discuss, help, get help, etc., 3D in whatever programs we use.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:29

"afraid of a dark future" The future for 3D and such is bright. Fantastic computing power, better 3D software, and better 3D ideas are appearing all the time. TS is still good and it almost doesn't matter which way you go from here: there is good stuff everywhere.

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 08 Jun 2010, 08:04

That's funny how some people talk about tS like if it was a human being.
TrueSpace is a tool.
How a tool could be dead ?
It does what it is made for, right ?

I'm using ACDSee 5.0 since 2002. That's a tool for quick jpg/bmp/psd vizualisation and organization. I never upgraded because the new versions are filled with gimmicks.
Same for Winamp : the same version since 10 years !

If it works for me, if the job can be done, and if I get an income from it, why should I change my favorite tool ?

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 08 Jun 2010, 08:33

I dont think its dead either.... because of ppl using it, making pics and anims, having a discussion forums and making plugins for it (so there is still a development too).

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 08 Jun 2010, 09:53

Finis wrote:"afraid of a dark future" The future for 3D and such is bright. Fantastic computing power, better 3D software, and better 3D ideas are appearing all the time. TS is still good and it almost doesn't matter which way you go from here: there is good stuff everywhere.

It was only a reference about the image posted by V3rd3! Just a joke (the ass was the dark future). Have you see it?

Jimmer · Post by **Jimmer** » 08 Jun 2010, 12:54

I mostly use ts6.6 (Model Side). But I do play in WorkSpace 7.61 from
time to time. I need a better graphics card for WorkSpace. I dont get the
soft shadows ect.. I use a P4 3.4 ghz. notebook with a Radon x600. and
Win XP.
To upgrade the graphics card I'll need a NEW notebook and thats when
Win 7 becomes a factor.
As far as tS being dead NO WAY, (it's just not moving too much). Theres plenty of tools you can still get if you look hard enough. (But I'm sure most
of us have many of them anyway). And once you have'em, well you have'em.
My 6.6 works great, life without ShaderLab, SkeleTool,
WaveGenerator and that INTERFACE is simply not worth living. (Well, Ok not really)... My biggest regret about the whole thing is MicroSoft not letting
go of the code. For them I really don't see what the point was.... anyway !!!

froo · Post by **froo** » 08 Jun 2010, 13:43

Well, if the code were released, I seriously doubt a group of devs would pick it up and fix it. From what I understand, major modifications would be required in order to considerably improve the performance. Basically, some design choices which were selected, turned out to be the wrong ones. It would take considerable effort to back out of those changes, and rewrite the functionality. Unless the 'public' dev team were very proficient with coding, it would take quite a long time to do this. Add the fact that most people work full time, and we see it would take even longer.

Nonetheless, what we have does work. I still like it. I use Model side as well, from time to time.

I recall, when I first saw the 7.0 interface, I thought, What The Hell?! But got used to it.

EDIT:
BTW; I am still working on plugins for Workspace; just having busy stuff to deal with off-hours for now...

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 08 Jun 2010, 13:47

I personally would appriciate, if tS had only modeler side with DX9 engine and the new features. Well the side panel could be part of it.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » 08 Jun 2010, 17:52

Thank you for all your comments about my statement about "TS is dead". Interesting reading and I did appreciate your comments.

OK I agree that TS is totaly dead when nobody uses it. But the question is what will turn up in the future. Is there any meaning in learning the workspace side.

I have been working with the modeler side for 5 years now and still learning new thing. I find the Workspace side hard to understand and use and have really no time to investigate it. For me the important thing is to get my idéas to live in 3D.

But in the end I maybee should give it a try. What do you suggest?

Wigand · Post by **Wigand** » 08 Jun 2010, 18:12

But in the end I maybee should give it a try. What do you suggest?

I always try to see these programs as tools to help me. I use several programs for different functions.

And for the workspace I can say try these:

The boolean function of workspace is very good and stable.
The LE of cause, if you have learned to use it.
The different selection modes.
The bridge function to bridge between edges.
Displacement tools.
Morph.
Easy to use Add Polygon.
Multi line text.

If you need these function , why not use them?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 08 Jun 2010, 18:37

what can we see with the poll?
1-those who use both sides are mostly workspace.
2-Those who use the workspace exclusively are less outnumbered than those who use the modelside.
The result shows that the workspace is appreciated but it needs often modelside because it is incomplete (beta). The modeside is independent even if it is older.

As wigand said, you can try the workspace to learn some interesting function. Don't forget the standalone version to learn this side without the problem of bridge.

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 08 Jun 2010, 19:11

Tommy wrote: But in the end I maybee should give it a try. What do you suggest?

Wigand is right : if your goal is simply to create models and render cool pictures, then Workspace's power is in its efficient point edit toolset and the boolean.

For example, did you noticed that when you move your eye around a point/face selection, the selection is the center of your eye rotation ? In Modeler, the eye rotation focuses on object's center, which can be a problem if your object is big. Such details are cool.
Also the Point Edit Snapping toggle brings some accuracy and comfort.

Sometimes, I use Workspace PE tools to draw details on a terrain/land mesh.
My workflow is the following :
- In Modeler, move your model into a new layer, then hide all layers except that one
- Next, turn the Bridge from OFF, to AUTO, and switch to Workspace.
- Thanks to the layers trick, only the object I want to work on is present in the Workspace : this allows to work with big scenes with no slowdown, even with a "small" graphic card.
- Do the PE work, then get back to Modeler, turn OFF the Bridge and unhide the other layers.

Jimmer · Post by **Jimmer** » 09 Jun 2010, 12:14

I do most everything in tS6.6. But when I do go to WorkSpace, I have
to admit the real time DX modeler really stands out. To see your
models as you make'em all shinny and specular with bump maps ect..
It really is like working in the future. Plus playing around with that
great BLOOM. It's too bad it didn't get more finished. I was planning
on doing a WorkSpace project when I finnish up several other things.
Tool development on this side would still definetly be great.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 09 Jun 2010, 13:37

If you like the real-time renderer, then you should try out Parva's shaders, they're very nice.

http://www.parva-project.de/en/dxspack_en.html"

Wigand · Post by **Wigand** » 09 Jun 2010, 16:40

I thought I saw a message from froo about a nurbs plugin in this thread. Where is it gone?

froo · Post by **froo** » 09 Jun 2010, 16:43

doh sorry about that; I was going to create a new thread for it.

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