United3dArtists Archive

I have a suggestion. With two challenges struggling to get entries why not combine them and let the Winner decide on the type of challenge,
topic and deadline? You could have quick fire challenges 1 Hour or less or a Challenge where you are allowed to use previously made objects in a scene etc.
We really need to freshen up our Challenges here to draw interest.

I think that's a good idea, Steinie.

Sounds good to me. It will probably get more participants. Winners already make the rules and the type of challenge is really defined by the rules. It allows MMC and SMC type challenges and inventing new ones.

Potential problem: I have noticed that MMC's and SMC's often get more participation with less creative rules and topics. Not always but usually. If a winner devises a creative type of challenge could be interesting but also risks low participation.

What to call it?

So how will it be decided? Keep the current challenges or change to the new? The forum mostly doesn't have leaders who make decisions like rules/laws/what challenges to have. I like it that way. While I support the freedom of any member to start a challenge (note the texture and animation challenges and my/Steve's duel) but a new challenge needs the semi-official-ness of the MMC/SMC's to help increase participation. A poll seems in order.

For some reason, this topic/conversation seems to be split over 2 threads. Personally, I think that before deciding on what should happen to the SMC/MCC, the opportunity should be taken to examine a few of the other related issues in a bit more detail. Again, going by the comments in the other thread, a more dynamic/competitive challenge would be good; yes the quality has been in decline and yes more needs to be done to attract new members to the forum (or greater encourage participation of its existing members). When you also take into account the membership numbers of the forum, 700+ the last time I looked, statistically, active forum participation is very poor. But, are all these issues related? Will one solve the other? I don't know for sure. In addition, the homepage does in fact "advertise" the SMC and MMC although as I know from experience it is a very time-consuming process to keep it continually updated and hence it has fallen well out of date. And, we used to have a rotating banner on the homepage which showcased some of the forums best work. I don't know if it was removed for technical reasons. And, if I remember correctly (and apologies to Prodigy if I am wrong here), when the forum was initially set-up, Prodigy said he didn't want to go down the route of having super-competitive challenges and the like when the topic of awarding medals etc. was first raised as that was counter-productive to forming a unique/collaborative community atmosphere. Furthermore, any setting-up of panels/galleries will require extra work for some members and we need to ensure there is willingness/availability to take that on or any proposed changes will be short-lived.

So all-in-all, I think if one is going to go ahead and make changes to the current system of challenges then it would be well worthwhile taking a step back, looking at the bigger picture and getting the format/purpose of the new challenge correct.

Breech Block has a point, the reason that I create a similar thread is to gather ideas what should we do about it...
and others can share of their view about it.

Again guys the other side of the coin is..... the competition format etc is fine... the ability of forum members to compete has been limited by work volume, technical problems or family issues.

I have been out of the game for months with a torn rotator cuff and a very slow diagnosis/treatment path.

Others have commented that their work is keeping them out of the contests.

Unless you have painkillers that I can't get there is little any one can do to encourage me to spend time working on projects.

Others need to focus their energy on generating income or family matters.

I realize the decline in participation in frustrating but I look at it as a sign of the times. I still see most of the past contributors continue to post here as they can or at least lurk in the shadows. The interest is still here but the time is not.

I can't speak for everyone but I hope to be back in the game before the new year. Other than that I will still check in and see what everyone is up to.

Ah now I am not sure which thread I saw it in; this thread, or the 'Purge MMC/SMC' one.
Something about the front page getting updated. It would be nice (and maybe this was
mentioned already) - to have the gallery winners and runner ups showcased on the front
page. If that was mentioned already (by someone else, not by me in this post ... duh)
elsewhere sorry for the double post!
As for my participation, I think I should skip it due to my definite lack of experience and time,
and possible lack of talent/skill, so as not to drag down the quality. Just being honest.
Maybe I can help out in some other capacity.

While I don't mind changing it I noted, in DarkScythe's thread, that there might not be a problem to solve ... like V3rd3 said. BB brings up good points and I agree we should think it through before deciding to change or not.

Here's some big picture things to look at:
- Is there a problem? Maybe there is no need to change the challenges.
- The challenges aren't everything. Participation is low outside of challenges too so that might not be related to or solved by challenges.
- What is the main purpose of this forum and how do challenges and quality fit into that?
- There are plenty of 3D websites where we can enter competitions for high quality work.
- High quality pieces can come from non-challenge work where the artist can take all the time he needs.

Possible problems mentioned are greater quality wanted and low participation.

From the big picture perspective participation has always had ups and downs but it has been declining overall. Is the decline in participation a problem? If so, are challenge changes a way to increase it?

Few people have expressed a wish to prioritize quality. Fun, friends, and learning seem more popular goals here.

This forum, a reincarnation of its predecessor, the anaglifo hosted one, was made primarily to keep a community of people that formed on the Caligari forum together with the same friendly atmosphere.

A thought on quality oriented challenges/forum: Note Froo's comment that he wouldn't want to "drag down the quality" and so might not participate. Maybe that means a proposed high level competition but he might mean all challenges. A different kind of participation problem could result if active members avoid challenges because they don't have a competitive level of skill. The current friendlier fun oriented ones provide enjoyment for all members and participants and serve as education to help develop skills through help and comments on the projects.

That is why I suggested a separate competition for the highly skilled to produce high quality pieces. It would be nice to see that quality here but it (HQ competition not HQ work) also might not be what this forum is about or even be destructive to the friendly "one big happy family" atmosphere.

As for my participation, I think I should skip it due to my definite lack of experience and time,
and possible lack of talent/skill, so as not to drag down the quality

it has nothing to do with your or others talent or quality of work, 3d art work can be time consuming. the more time you put on it the more it turn out great. people who put quickie 3d artwork doesn't mean they don't have talent,
I have seen many quickie one in many 3d forum and including myself. and remember hollywood movies are created 3 to 5 yrs because they want to make sure quality is superb to more time spent the more quality is up. what
dicussing here is got two challenge and no participants. james got fed off cause no one is particpating
As Steinie said two challenge doesn't attract participants why not make it to one so that all
time and creativity is focust in that one challenge when his done with it he will not be distract of the other challenge if theres two. So one challenge you just focust it all that challenge.

Well, just for the record, I didn't take it personally.
But on more than one occasion it was noted that the quality of the competition artwork
has gone down, and that would cause issues with attracting new members.

Perhaps this was already mentioned... it would be nice to be able to put competition winning
artwork on the main page, either in a banner, or a rotating gallery image similar to the old Caligari
page.

Also, I think that having one competition that would fluctuate randomly between MMC and SMC would
get confusing. What if an artist **Really** wanted to participate in an SMC, but there was no SMC competition - there was only the MMC? Or vice versa: an artist really wanted to participate in a competition, but needed more than 2 hours to complete their idea? They couldn't, since there was no MMC.

It does appear, as Finis pointed out, the main problem that is flowing down to the SMC and MMC is lack of forum participation. It's ok; it happens.

Here is another idea for a competition; I can only speak for myself; perhaps others feel the same way, maybe not, about their artwork. Since time does appear to be very short for myself (and I suspect, many others), how about a 'Just Get It Done' competition? The reasons I don't usually participate are:

- lack of sufficient time to make something look really good
- concern that what I post will look very very cheap

So, in order to avoid diluting the artwork quality in a competition with more advanced users, how about a competition where the actual quality does not matter? One in which, if you have an idea, just get it done and don't worry about the quality. As long as it gets completed, that is all that matters.
The reason I mention this is, there are all too often, so much artwork that get started as an idea, then gets blocked out in a scene, then gets left as-is (i.e., incomplete), which can get discouraging to an artist. So, the goal is to just get it done. That's usually the approach I take, since time is short for me.
Just a thought.

So far the thoughts on the possibilities, especially possible troubles, show me these things:
- The real concern is low participation.
- The nature of the challenges did not cause low participation.
- Changes to the challenges might help increase participation.
- The MMC and SMC, together, are a good system of challenges which overcome many of the new-challenge problems.
- There is a focus on challenges as if that is all there is in the forum.
- The same factors that effect participation are likely the culprit in artwork quality also.
- Forces outside of the forum (work, economy, family, health, ...) are a big cause of the low participation.
- Concerns about quality have mostly been stated in the context of its effect on participation.
- Participation ebbs and flows. We may be "solving" a natural cycle rather than a problem.

Froo, I think "just get it done" is what WIPs are for. Challenges aren't everything. Everyone can start a project outside of the challenges and do what he wants to.

I'm not concerned with the quality of the artwork here other than I like to see good stuff and improvement for each artist. That doesn't mean such concerns aren't valid. I'm pointing out that not everyone sees quality artwork as a major factor or purpose of the forum. To me this forum is a place where people of all skill levels "hang out" and help each other.

I think that the migration from TS to other software is a factor in participation. Short to medium term: people haven't yet learned enough about their new software to do anything for a challenge. Long term: some move to other forums/websites with better support for their new software. With that in mind, emphasizing that this is not only a TS forum might help a little.

Finis wrote: - The real concern is low participation.
- The nature of the challenges did not cause low participation.
I think that the migration from TS to other software is a factor in participation. Short to medium term: people haven't yet learned enough about their new software to do anything for a challenge. Long term: some move to other forums/websites with better support for their new software. With that in mind, emphasizing that this is not only a TS forum might help a little.

Thats what i said 2 years ago until now..... If you want this forum to become a live place again fill it with somethihng that is interesting
EVEN for people who dont use and support Truespace... Nothing against Truespace but its slowly fading into 3d history...
Wonder what some people like Marcel are doing . I´ve been googling him and there isnt any new from him since beginning of this year ????
Peter

i think we all agree that we need contest that will heve prestige. That it will be an honor to have a picture in it and be proud to show and say "my pic won a contest on UD3DA". That is a good motivation imho. Not to have your art shown "in a dirty old house on the wall with other crapy pictures" but in a "National Gallery alonside with the best". You will trully not be proud of showin your pic in something that doesnt have prestige and if you have only that "old house" to show your work, you will not get motivated to show there another pic.
I think we need to start a top gallery. In first months we can enter some already done pictures. The best everyone has to offer. And vote which ones to hang in our "U3DA Top Gallery", to have something for start. (not only one pic per poll, but all the good ones - maybe a pic that will have more than xy votes will make it, we can decide based on the first poll or make it like xy% of total votes).
Next time when we will have the start up bundle, we can judge better coz we will already know the level. Someone will need to set the first theme and set some time (like a half a year and at least 3 entries). Then we can vote who is the best. But there can be more winners that can make it to gallery (some runner ups, again fullfiling minimum votes criteria). So the pictures in the top gallery will have a badge of the place - some pic will get there as a winner, others as 2nd, 3rd, etc.). Thisway we can have a very representative gallery with prestige. And thats the aim.
Beside we can run SMC, coz its cheap for time, so everyone can participate even with not much time to chill.

what do you think about such concept?

froo wrote:Well, just for the record, I didn't take it personally.
But on more than one occasion it was noted that the quality of the competition artwork
has gone down, and that would cause issues with attracting new members.

Just to be clear on this, I don't think that the lack of quality in recent SMC's/MCC's has anything to do with anyone's ability. I think it is more a case of people not having enough time, but fire-off a quick entry anyhow just to show their support. I guess the real question is, is whether this action, highly commendable though it may be, is doing any damage to the community's long-term interests.

I think Bitkar has raised some good points and I certainly think the community could post a truly epic gallery when you look at some of the piccies the likes of Prodigy, Marcel, Splinters, Weevil and Mad Mouse have produced over the years. As I said earlier though, we did have this not too long ago and it was removed so there may be technical/bandwidth reasons why this is no longer possible.

With regards the SMC/MCC, a possible soloution would be to still have to comps but change their name and nature. One clearly a fun competion aimed at all with emphasis aimed at being more creative than proficient. The other, a more technical challenge where perhaps you have to model a very specific object and this is where artists can test their skills and help educate others by showing how they solve the problems of modelling more complex objects.

Breech Block wrote:I guess the real question is, is whether this action, highly commendable though it may be, is doing any damage to the community's long-term interests.

Yes. What is the purpose of this forum? This really hasn't been an awesome picture based forum. So increasing the attention or concern about quality might damage the "one big happy family" friendliness of the place. We all know about those websites/forums where the pros/experts/talented are unfriendly or even rude to those of less ability. We don't want that here but new people attracted by the changes being discussed might be like that and change the nature of the forum.

It is important to consider that the participation problem (if it is a problem) might be mostly due to factors outside of the forum (work ...) and so not be correctable by changes to the forum. Also, challenges aren't everything.

Much high quality work has been produced here. Often that work comes from the current MMC. That doesn't mean that a different or additional contest might not work better but participation and quality might not be related to the current challenge system.

If we have a gallery of excellence it should include any qualifying picture not just those from a contest. Good pictures come from independent non-challenge projects too.

A quality orientation in a challenge does remove other enjoyable things like creativity or humor where the idea is important. Note that my SMC entry "Nerf Foam Safety Nails" got more votes than the higher quality image and technical work of "Pen Knife". Why? Theme appropriate humor.

Here is an observation from the Caligari forums. They had contests with prizes and excellent images. Notice that few less skilled people entered due to little hope of winning vs. the pros. So whatever we do some kind of challenge that, in attitude, is like the current ones is still needed. Downside: That makes the "gathering" strategy (concentrate participants in one challenge) difficult.

Interesting conversation. All ideas sound good.

Very interesting. Well.. I like this forum. I think it's still quite a blank slate with much opporutnity. =)

I am starting to get active in this cause I want to use truespace more, principally, move a GPU rendering revolution but mainly i'm here to share what I know and what I do, maybe get some posts or advice for what I do, or maybe help someone else figure something out that I already have, and really just get into a community of 3D artists, share art and learn from it and share what I learn. maybe even get recognition for my knowledge or art (i know, selfish selfish, only human!)

Knowledge of how to make stuff look cool and from my imagination to reality is also what drew me here, and the opportunity to share, tho I am not a pro at all. I think that would be anyone's desire.

Challenges are cool, and I like. I also like what vue is doin with their ecosystem. They have a portfolio of the week, an image of the day, a contest or two also, a theme for a month, prizes, etc. I think that is key for a good market, etc, attracting members. I would love the opportunity to be featured in the front page of a forum.

I do like the logo of this site too, cause it's about 3d artists, not just truespace. Truespace was just the means, and the ideology of collaborative 3d spaces and products, ease to learn, quick to share, and full of participation, etc.

But really, i think tutorials and techinical support and examples and secrets to making art is what REALLY drew me here.



So... I'm kinda focussin on sharing knowledge of truespace, and whatever really, once I poduce products. But I'd sure put up any knowledge on anything I do. I think people go to forums to find help, and to find some 15 minutes of fame.

So the whole idea of a united 3d artists forum is to well.... have people who wanna help, pros who are nice and share the secrets about any program or product (like how did you do that!??! CGsocietie's secret, interviews with uptop pros and their secrets) that attract people who wanna learn, also including opportunity for fun, but the same, opportunities for good art, true art, and the 15 mintues of fame that comes with it.

So anything I learn, I try put it up, like this dithered mirky shadow I just put up in the rendering forum. It may not be useful, but it looks cool in realtime. =)

Finished art will come later. But I think CGsociety or CGhug or the like had to go through similar challenges to get up there. But just the simple support of glorifying artists (and if we do the same, including glorifying the noob = a larger formum target) and providing knowledge and tech support is what makes them successful (thus the forum is NEEDED for WORK. thus solving the lack of time issue ).

like, i'd love to know how on earth they made those foam safety nails. what is the texture? How did you do it? how'd you make them bend with the gravity? What program? What was the process? etc? ("obviously i'm jealous, cause such a cool thing was published before an audience!! That dude sure had some fame! So i want to do it too.. and gee! he's telling me, awesome! and.. hang on, i can do that, that was easy!!! I am gonna be a famous! I think I like this forum!" eg.)

And.. who is the owner/head/supervisor of this site anyway? How is this maintained? lol, side note....

But interesting topic! It's cool to be a part of this forum.

there's one problem that shift my attention those random spammmers are frequently in this forum lately is there a way to block those from occuring.

sorry cannot help although not about smc and mmc it's still about for the betterment of the forum.

About the only way, DarkScythe, is for someone to catch it, and delete it.
I saw one post recently, that was semi-spam. It may be you are online earlier
before an admin is, who can delete it.

Great feedback Draise! Prodigy created this forum for us; to keep it going, an anonymous donor
paid the fees through, 2014 I believe it is, to keep it going.

finis: i understand your concern about the big family. But there can be fun and good technical level at the same time. And as I said, we can keep smc, which could serve just for fun. To have something not time consuming (no need to do everything "detailistic") is also good to make some good simple idea, coz you dont just simply have time to make something epic. So having a range of contests is good, imho.
Also note that, this forum is the last island for trueSpacers and I would be very glad if we could show its strenghts and proove it to be app capable of making pro output (no matter the age and stopped dev). This can make us also better positions on other forums and gain us some respect.
About the less experienced users vs pros: Its two way - low level contest will demotivate experienced users (coz of easy win in low level contest) and high level contest will demotivate less experienced ones (coz of the high level) but also can be an aim for the less experienced/skilled! This is why we need both or the overall level of this forum will get down by time. Supporting activity of only one group will "kill" the other group and we need to be honest. Some of us is doing much better than the others (thats just how world is). And its good for them to see what is possible. To have motivation and inspiration. You cant compete as amateur agains pro in any sport. Its somehow unfair.

Fun is needed, indeed, but something pro-looking is needed aswell. Now we have only the fun. We just need anything to keep the forum runing and keep here some activity. Thats why its better to select something in contest, not just make a gallery. No need to turn this forum into some huge with rude ppl. We are a good family now I think. I hope it will last long.

bitkar wrote:finis: i understand your concern about the big family. But there can be fun and good technical level at the same time. And as I said, we can keep smc, which could serve just for fun. To have something not time consuming (no need to do everything "detailistic") is also good to make some good simple idea, coz you dont just simply have time to make something epic. So having a range of contests is good, imho.
Also note that, this forum is the last island for trueSpacers and I would be very glad if we could show its strenghts and proove it to be app capable of making pro output (no matter the age and stopped dev). This can make us also better positions on other forums and gain us some respect.
About the less experienced users vs pros: Its two way - low level contest will demotivate experienced users (coz of easy win in low level contest) and high level contest will demotivate less experienced ones (coz of the high level) but also can be an aim for the less experienced/skilled! This is why we need both or the overall level of this forum will get down by time. Supporting activity of only one group will "kill" the other group and we need to be honest. Some of us is doing much better than the others (thats just how world is). And its good for them to see what is possible. To have motivation and inspiration. You cant compete as amateur agains pro in any sport. Its somehow unfair.

Fun is needed, indeed, but something pro-looking is needed aswell. Now we have only the fun. We just need anything to keep the forum runing and keep here some activity. Thats why its better to select something in contest, not just make a gallery. No need to turn this forum into some huge with rude ppl. We are a good family now I think. I hope it will last long.

I understand everything you say but please tell me where i can get time from ?
how many wips are there here every week ? Not contests just plain and simple wips..
I tell you I havent done a lot for my own pleasure in the past few months....... i´m running a business and competition is very fierce out there...
On top of that family related stuff without end mainly dealing with health issues in the family.....
i´m in stzeady contact with some members here and they have the same issues at the moment that i have.....
love to do more though in the future but no challanges because the time that i have isnt continuous.... its on and off....
Lost 2 hard drives and had to manualy recover file by file with a linux cd.....and I do backups every week...
Time is the problem only time !
Peter

can't you even make 30 minutes a day? a couple on the weekend?

I'm always flabbergasted about where the time is going... it's already November again, the year is finished and if felt like yesterday that we had new year...

If we want time, we have to make time, which means re-prioritize and allocate to the more important things in life, which is NOT work... maybe drop some things, cut back on others... I'm speaking mainly to myself here but I bet that this is the case for almost everybody

We have to make a plan, it won't make itself and others can't make it for us

theuns wrote:can't you even make 30 minutes a day? a couple on the weekend?

I'm always flabbergasted about where the time is going... it's already November again, the year is finished and if felt like yesterday that we had new year...

If we want time, we have to make time, which means re-prioritize and allocate to the more important things in life, which is NOT work... maybe drop some things, cut back on others... I'm speaking mainly to myself here but I bet that this is the case for almost everybody

We have to make a plan, it won't make itself and others can't make it for us

you want to know my timetable.. sure ! Its a holliday here in Austria... got up in the morning .. checked my mails and had a cup of coffee.. went straight to my
aunties house... shes 81 and had a cancer operation this year.. gave her all the medicin she needs.. changed her bandages... back on route home
set up a lightent... am now at making pictures of 80 pieces of jewellery(fashion jewels) ...sweating like mad... need a few minutes rest after a couple of them....
to mainly dry up my clothing.. here typing to this forum while the 5 minutes i have in between ... back to work then for another 4 hours... loading the whole junck onto my
computer and doing postprocessing work... going back to my auntie.. same procedure as in the morning... finishing at midnight..... 4 hours of sleep....
in hospital in the morning and it goes on and on every day.....
and now i should have a head for some more 3d for some challenges.....
Tjhe free time that i have is the one that i type a sentence or 2 to this forum and another one ..
Peter

i hope someone else has more time than rayman :)

time is always the issue. Another issue is the mood for 3d. I personally do graphics at work, so when i get home, I want to relax from it a while. But I try, I miss those times when I did 3D only for fun. My dream was to make it as a job :D what a paradox. But I try.
Well rayman is very busy. We can only hope that others are not.

Question is that, why MMC and SMC was lately so empty and how many and what type of chalanges we can run. OR what can we do to make this forum run. I think we need some WIP, we need to work, we need to see someone work. The activity (doing graphis) is 80% of forum, rest is just offtopic and some news and discussing new technologies or technical problems. But this forum cant run only on chating about technical stuff without doing graphics.

how about a community project????

nothing big, not even an animation... we could make it a still image composition, come up with a list of objects that participants or teams can choose from to model/texture/light etc. and even several composers setting up the scene or portions of a scene...

almost like an 3d orchestra!!!

yeah! that could work... still have deadlines to keep things going and not let it grind to a halt but each person can use their creativity with the objects/scene portions from the list etc.

what do you think?

bitkar wrote:i hope someone else has more time than rayman

time is always the issue. Another issue is the mood for 3d. I personally do graphics at work, so when i get home, I want to relax from it a while. But I try, I miss those times when I did 3D only for fun. My dream was to make it as a job what a paradox. But I try.
Well rayman is very busy. We can only hope that others are not.

Question is that, why MMC and SMC was lately so empty and how many and what type of chalanges we can run. OR what can we do to make this forum run. I think we need some WIP, we need to work, we need to see someone work. The activity (doing graphis) is 80% of forum, rest is just offtopic and some news and discussing new technologies or technical problems. But this forum cant run only on chating about technical stuff without doing graphics.

I´m doing graphics all the time but cant put up work that i make for my clients thats a NO GO....
Apart from that its not interesting work.....its bread and butter type of thing....
funny thing is that the less interesting things are the more pay you get....
PS.:by the way dont tell us times are not changing as you can see in the picture below......
Peter

i dont want to force you to show your work you do for clients. Well sometimes its possible, sometimes not. The same with me. I really would like to show you something i made, but i just CANNOT. Especially one project, that is the best Ive ever done.
The pic is a proof, epic :D

theuns: really not a bad idea for the activity here. I think this could work on a long therm basis. ;)

how about a community project????

thats a good Idea but if you want community project it is better that we can join that entry in a different contest that will be exciting, make people get serious and not just playing around just like jeffroig animation project.

but this time lets it make more organize. When I say join In a contest there's a goal so everyone is fired up.