United3dArtists Archive

seppgirty · Post by **seppgirty** » 25 Jul 2015, 13:24

Several people have mentioned trying to get TS open source. I was reading an old article about VE. It seems someone named Garry Trinder was maybe the head of the TS to VE project. I see him in this article here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/virtualearth/ar ... pment.aspx

Past the article, down in the comments section he talks about TS.

I know that most people see this as beating a dead horse and that TS is dead, but the boards have been quiet and i thought i would start a conversation.

clintonman · Post by **clintonman** » 25 Jul 2015, 14:23

Wow, 7 years. It's been a long time...

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 25 Jul 2015, 16:14

He doesn't own TS so he can't release the source code, not legally, and he probably doesn't have it and would be in big trouble if he does and MS discovered that. The theft of Microsoft property by a current or former employee like Mr. Tinder would be treated very harshly. TS belongs to MS so only the company can authorize its distribution. Steal source code that was never legitimately released and distribute copies of it and use it to develop a product? Even if they see TS as worthless MS would have to make an example that you don't do that to them. Their wrath is legendary.

If you really want to organize a team of skilled people who could develop a major CG program and waste their efforts then contact MS to ask if they would give, sell , or license the source and related materials.

I suggest that you learn new, ongoing, thriving, CG software and stop using TS.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 25 Jul 2015, 16:34

Would be awesome to build a new software, but man it would be ambitious. Having the ability to fix bugs in trueSpace, and build of someone elses footwork (or even just updating the viewport to DirectX 11 or 12) would.. be a huge boost.

Remember that guy Marius who decided to make something? What happened with his personal project? It looked promising..

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 01 Aug 2015, 20:34

For my part it isnt necessary anymore!
Generaly speeking all you need is an average modeler...and there are quite a few
of them something like silo....or Hexagon or whatever ..even Truespace as it was until
Ts 6.6........
For nurbs.... I can only suggest a cad Soft... there are quite a few...I like and use moi 3d..
Sketchup is free for non profit.... best for making buildings
Then there is Fusion 360 also free for non profit and startups....that lets you convert
from poly to nurbs and back.....
Then there is Blender a whole suite of nice goodies....
Finish the whole thing off with a very good state of the art render engine and you are
more then set for the future .......that all together is a little over the normal price of
what TS used to be without promotion.....

If you spend the amount of work to get a new Truespace ...it will end with a price tag
that isnt worth it!
my 2 cents ....

seppgirty · Post by **seppgirty** » 02 Aug 2015, 13:45

Please explain to me what is so terribly outdated and dead about TS. (Please don't be bitter with your answers.)

I understand that it lacks companionship with a good render engine. It only has X9 and x10 shaders

The biggest problems i see is the left over bugs in the code. Even with out the code certain forum members patched the software and made big improvements.

Heck, clinton has made tools, import and export plug ins. Imagine what he could do if he had access with the code.

I use TS mainly for low poly game models and it works great for that.

You see many programs, mostly game engines, go open source because they don't want to work on it anymore.

Why not TS.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 02 Aug 2015, 19:09

If you have read what I wrote up in my post you will see that I included TS I didnt exclude
it and I think that one can use TS pretty well!
That wasnt the point of the thread though!
The point of the thread was building a future upon the source code and most of
us dont see a chance nor do we think its by any means necessary....
TS is stil usefull but there are better options in the meantime and other
options.....
If youve look at how nurbs in TS are implemented.. its more then rudimentory...
The render engine is 10 years old.....its still good for a certain look I know but
its no longer state of the art!
There is a very low polygon limit without extensive use of any kind of ecosystem...
The particle system is old ...the plugins arent developed nor are they supported anymore..
Dont forget that Roman broke the mold with TS 7 and then stopped development...!!
To be honest all the other pieces of soft that remained in the market arent realy devolped
anymore either... the market is very small and every year there is one victim of the crisis
after the other.....Have you seen what happend to xsi and how slow lightwave is going..
and how Carara is going and Strata and Amapi and Hexagon....
Back 10 Years ago there were at least 10 mid range programs!!!!
How many are left???

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2015, 23:20

I'm not saying TS is dead in that it doesn't work, is not useful, or is a lousy program. TS is dead in the sense that its development is dead. It will fade away as other programs become more desirable with improvements and new features and eventually from incompatibility with newer OS and hardware. So I recommend moving now. Meaning learn other CG programs that seem to have a future and migrate to them. I liked TS too but now I only use TS and Hexagon because I haven't had time to get started in Blender.

Continuing development of TS would possibly give it a future. That is pointless to me since there is plenty of other software available and it seems obvious that MS has no intention of letting anyone have or buy it but it wouldn't hurt to ask. If anyone wants to try to get the source (and hopefully design and technical docs and other material) for continuing development then step one is to contact MS. There is contact information on their website. Convince them that it is in their interest to license/sell/give it to you.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 03 Aug 2015, 19:02

Resurrecting TS would be a major piece of work and as the years since the MS acquisition pass by it is only getting more difficult. Other than MS getting involved there are a lot of other hurdles.

First and foremost would be resolving the internal rendering. The rendering code and links would all have to be removed from the source before it could be published. Lightworks is still a viable company (now an Nvidia partner) and would not release the rights to the engine when MS took over caligari so it is highly unlikely they would contribute it for free now. The need to remove the render engine code etc was discussed during open source conversations at the time.

Second, the development team was highly skilled and familiar so a lot of the documentation regarding the application is a verbal tradition. Assembling a new team to take the project on with the limited documentation available would be a large investment in learning curve.

Third, the application architecture is not without issues. A significant amount of effort would be required to expand the core code to make it scalable to new hardware and operating systems.

Finally, it would be really difficult to get a group together to create or manage the new product. What would everyone want for a strategic direction? A few years ago when I could have gotten professional investors involved in financing a project there was no interest among any of the active devs to try. Yafaray4TS came and went as the last group effort (at least as far as I know) and we haven't heard a thing from many of the TS evangelists since they moved on to other projects. What is left is the few of us who are still in the fan club. I still dust off TS for making the occasional model because it is still my favourite box modelling tool. I put those models into 3D Coat for UV mapping and retopo and load into Vue scenes to render.

I have tried starting a discussion with MS 3 times and gotten nowhere. If you choose to pursue this good luck.

seppgirty · Post by **seppgirty** » 03 Aug 2015, 22:20

Well said guys. Let TS rest in peace......

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Aug 2015, 01:12

Hi Seppgirty. Don't you rest in peace with regard to the forum. Keep doing cool stuff, whatever software you use, and keep participating here!

Remember, although we all like TS so most posts are related to TS this isn't a TS only forum. The forum is about "The Same People, the Same Great Community". When Caligari was closing Prodigy started a forum to keep the great community of people from the Caligari TS forum together. Some old timers have gone and many new members have joined and all have that special something that makes this a great forum.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 04 Aug 2015, 03:21

Agreed. This is a forum of fans... fans of TS and fans of the others on this site.

If you think about it there are few forums that last as long as this one covering much bigger subjects. We all seem to like encouraging each other and helping each other learn.

Cellulo · Post by **Cellulo** » 04 Aug 2015, 08:03

I imagine tS released open source and new version coming with Cycles engine from Blender a cool duo i think, but it's only a dream.

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 04 Aug 2015, 13:58

Well maybe using parts of the original code would be a better option. Still the sourcecode would be nice to have. For the basics - how the tS UI works and for the GUI. I think the user interface is THE TRUESPACE. Thats that, the way it handles, the ease of use, the workflow logic.

Lightworks problem: hmm, maybe, but there is very old version of their renderer, so maybe it could be possible. Ofc, implementing some new freeware renderer would be the best.

siderits · Post by **siderits** » 04 Aug 2015, 20:12

Interesting perspectives.

We've overlooked an important historical note.

In my opinion TS was ahead of the curve for the "era" and in most respects is still comparable to a mid range CAD (free or not), especially with plugins. What makes TS unique, to this day, is that the learning curve is shallow and the tutorials are reasonably good.

So, what did we overlook in this thread?

When TS was developed the VRML and MUD fever was at its peak and the desktop 3D additive manufacturing era did not yet exist. Caligari resources had reasonably been dedicated to developing Multi-user domains, 3D web interface design and a VRML export package, not desktop 3D printing. Now, a few years later, thingiverse.com has about a million free 3D files and lots of non-engineers (hobbyists) are looking for better CAD-Packs.

So the bottom line is that Microsoft holds the rights to a mid range CAD package that they can roll out with their proposed new 3D (multi-volume) file format, a range of 3D scanners (including phone apps) and multihead printers (including bio-printers).

That being said, I don't know what the future of TS is but there are certainly market forces that might give it a "kickstart". I can also assure you that its far from dead in the Open source Rapid Prototyping communities.

R

seppgirty · Post by **seppgirty** » 04 Aug 2015, 22:30

Hi Seppgirty. Don't you rest in peace with regard to the forum. Keep doing cool stuff, whatever software you use, and keep participating here!

Love this little community to much to leave. Love TS to much to quit using it.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 05 Aug 2015, 13:26

I do agree it is ahead of its time still.

The concept of node based everything, scripting into nodes, real-time shaders and lighting in a viewport with wysiwyg results, and collaborative 3D spaces in real time.... And ready fk/ik full body rigs even....

With its kinks I still think, as a concept, it's ahead of its time still. Thus I still use it for those pleasures.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 09 Aug 2015, 21:21

I Win 3000$ each month With only trueSpace modelside . My work is to find idea for design. Real CAD is made by another studio for the production. I am free and don't lost time with that. I am not engineer. I am artist. TS is my pen. Some time i do illustrations for the fun with TS. It can export obj and is enought to work with other softwares if you don't need CAD with curve.
If you want to do more it is time to change your software. I don't need that. In my opinion the most important is to be happy and free with what you do. Not the choose of a soft if It is because you have no other solution. Even if It is the best software of the world.

siderits · Post by **siderits** » 11 Aug 2015, 01:40

Well said!

I use TS extensively for rapid prototyping and 3D printing/CNC machining (in conjunction with other software). It's also a great platform for teaching CAD basics.

After taking a look at lists of 100 CAD packages, TS is, in my opinion, one of the top 5 best completely FREE, mid range, flexible multipurpose CAD packages available/downloadable today.

R

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 11 Aug 2015, 10:44

i can sign below what Marcel said. I tried different software, but i still like tS the most. Its the ease of use, fast workflow, freedom. For modeling, tS is still the ace.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 12 Aug 2015, 11:51

marcel wrote:I Win 3000$ each month With only trueSpace modelside . My work is to find idea for design. Real CAD is made by another studio for the production. I am free and don't lost time with that. I am not engineer. I am artist. TS is my pen. Some time i do illustrations for the fun with TS. It can export obj and is enought to work with other softwares if you don't need CAD with curve.
If you want to do more it is time to change your software. I don't need that. In my opinion the most important is to be happy and free with what you do. Not the choose of a soft if It is because you have no other solution. Even if It is the best software of the world.

You know ..its what you need...thats all the software needs to do !
I came to what I use now..its what I need and thats it...I dont look around for
anything else anymore either......it does the job..... my job is different
as 3d is part of real pictures ! I need photorealistic backgrounds as part
of my photographs.....its not that I need a super duper modeler.... I need
render engines that can do the job....
For me 3d is an extension of Photoshop.....
One shouldnt see I used 3d in the picture..
Here is an example I finished yesterday night....

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Aug 2015, 15:07

That's super cool Rayman. I'm not finding the glass beads completely convincing but it is really good. (Won't it be funny if the glass beads are not the CG thing?)

[Edit: deleted. Re-reading this part of it seemed mean or disrespectful and that certainly was not my intention. Unable to rewrite it so it didn't seem like that so I just deleted it. It was the same old babble anyway.]

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 12 Aug 2015, 21:53

You have a difficult job Peter.... your eyes must be very sore after you take those pics.... ')

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 13 Aug 2015, 06:35

v3rd3 wrote:You have a difficult job Peter.... your eyes must be very sore after you take those pics.... ')

Yeah its hard man ! But its of no use complaining !

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 13 Aug 2015, 06:38

Finis wrote:That's super cool Rayman. I'm not finding the glass beads completely convincing but it is really good. (Won't it be funny if the glass beads are not the CG thing?)

[Edit: deleted. Re-reading this part of it seemed mean or disrespectful and that certainly was not my intention. Unable to rewrite it so it didn't seem like that so I just deleted it. It was the same old babble anyway.]

Thank you Finis!
No the glass beeds are glued by the makeup artist...! CG is part of the background...and I make the dramatic looking skies in Vue..!

Cellulo · Post by **Cellulo** » 28 Oct 2015, 09:51

Maybe Roman Ormandy can make something for us about the trueSpace source code, as he is the initial creator of trueSpace, i found his page on the web, we can see that he has worked with Microsoft for the virtual earth map tool using trueSpace technology.

http://insights.wired.com/profile/Roman ... z3pr1A2DN6

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 28 Oct 2015, 15:58

I've talked to Roman on Skype some months ago and there is nothing he can do about trueSpace. It is now Microsoft property.
Also, Roman doesn't work at Microsoft anymore. He is into something new now and trueSpace seems an old story to him.

Cellulo · Post by **Cellulo** » 28 Oct 2015, 16:17

Damn ! i believe Roman can do something but no

, trueSpace is stuck forever to evolve now.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 28 Oct 2015, 18:00

It's not stuck...dive into the Link Editor and start flinging those spaghetti strings around!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 28 Oct 2015, 20:35

Or try buy intellectual property from Microsoft directly?

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 29 Oct 2015, 14:18

But he knows ppl in Microsoft. I think if he wanted, he could try to talk to someone. I dont believe that Microsoft gives a damn about some trueSpace. Its just in some shelf.

And workspace spaghetti? damn workspace, it sucks. Old tS6.6 UI (modelspace) is way better imho. More complete and years proven working.

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Ask Garry Trinder for TS source code

Ask Garry Trinder for TS source code

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