United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Apr 2013, 19:37

Guess I have time for a speed modeling challenge. Jewelry needs jewels. Experimenting. Jewel is a TS 7.6 primitive modified with the right click menus. Render in Kerkythea PM+FG. I notice there is no fire. No colorful prism sparkles. Some Thea pictures show a spectrum rainbow from a prism. I'll try MLT later.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Apr 2013, 02:35

Here is a test with MLT render in KT. 61 cycles. I got no rainbow effect with the blue glass material so I gave it the abbe number of sapphire (72.2) for dispersion and sapphire's index of refraction = this picture. I will use photon mapping for the render since it has good looking caustics and is pretty. Now to model some jewelry.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Apr 2013, 21:34

Still experimenting. I'll start from scratch for the finished one. This explores two things. A DAZ Studio figure modeling the jewelry and modeling intertwined chains.

The double chain, modeled in Hexagon, started as a helix. I bent that around a circle which produced a wavy squarish shape. Not sure why it didn't fit the circle better. A rotated copy made the second chain.

I'll put several small gems and a pendant on the chains.

Then I fooled with the standard DS figure's face some and applied some hair, clothes, texture, and pose that came with the program. The chains are very difficult to position in DS. If I knew Blender I'd use physics or cloth or such to place them. This is a 3Delight render via DS.

If Steinie doesn't ok using the figure, since I didn't make it from scratch then I'll model a simple stand. If ok then I'll export it for use in TS and Kerkythea.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Apr 2013, 05:20

2 hours 15 minutes so far. Modeled in Hexagon. It will probably go to TS next for simple UV's.

Two intertwined chains. One with gems. The gems have simple settings modeled too. I used the method noted before: helix bent around a circle copy and rotate. Then I used the other bend tool (the one with taper etc.) to bend both chains so they might fit a person better. The gem is a modified sphere. I placed copies of the gem and setting group on the chain with the lay on tool.

The chain with gems will be gold with a bump map or, if in DAZ Studio, maybe a displacement map. The other will be similar but platinum. Not sure yet what color the gems will be.

The DS character will export with textures but doesn't look great in Kerkythea. I think it would take a lot of work on the materials in KT and I don't get colorful dispersion sparkles so I will probably render in DS if I use the character.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Apr 2013, 20:56

I used Booleans in Hexagon to make this display stand from the DAZ model. The materials are from the Kerkythea forum or downloads section. KT render PM+FG five minutes. About 30 minutes making the stand so that's 2 hours 45 minutes so far. I'll get the necklace and stand into Hexagon and fit it to the neck better. Then I'll try different KT render methods and a DAZ render.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Apr 2013, 19:16

3 hours 50 minutes so this is it.

A little effort at fitting the intertwined chains and it was clear that would take too long. So I made a single chain in Hexagon. To fit it to the neck and shoulders I shaped a cylinder to intersect the display stand from the previous picture where a necklace would go. Then I applied Boolean intersection and selected the edges along the "necklace edge". Extracting that as a curve and giving it thickness made the new chain. Then I applied the gem and setting groups with the lay on tool. If I had more time I'd put 2 to 4 smaller gems on the back of the necklace.

Here is a quick render. Kerkythea with photon mapping and final gather. The display stand needs gloss like the previous (plastic) image but darker and marble. The chain needs the flat modifier for the material so its polygons give a faceted or segmented look. More lights and try MLT render.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 09 Apr 2013, 19:54

oooh! Me likey a lot!

Looks like it is ready for display in a front window for a store.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Apr 2013, 04:43

Thanks James.

The emeralds were too dark without MLT rendering so I used it. 50 cycles. The display has my fossil rock texture available in Free Stuff from Finis vi ... =31&t=1663. The fossil texture didn't look as intended but made an interesting pattern. The UV was probably distorted by the Booleans. Lighting is a jpg free sample of a spherical HDRI of St. Nicolaus Church as the sky and two omni (point) lights. The display stand is part of a Daz Studio figure separated with Booleans in Hexagon.

Title: Emeralds and Gold
Modeling Time: 3 hours 50 minutes
Render Time: 4 hours
Software: Hexagon, Kerkythea, Daz Studio

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 10 Apr 2013, 15:32

Pro!

I think the examination of the facts has clear stated the evidence at hand your honor.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Apr 2013, 17:22

Thanks James.

That picture is straight out of KT except Paint Shop for the signature and to increase compression for smaller file size. No tone mapping and no post production adjustments.

Here is one rendered in Daz with the necklace on the figure. I think I saw a Daz materials library with gold etc. but I couldn't find it now so the necklace has materials I made with only simple knowledge of the material system. Gems are too bright.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 10 Apr 2013, 17:30

The one from kt looks alot better more realistic
Great job so far

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Apr 2013, 17:47

Thanks Pugman1.

Since I was trying for realism more realistic is better ... for this picture. It would be better if I let it render until there were no speckles but 4 hours was enough for me. I would have used the faster method but the gems were too dark. In the real world that might have a good look. In hindsight I could have just made them simple green glass instead of using the emerald material from a library. That material was probably made for MLT render where glass would work with PM.

The Daz one would look better if I knew more about the materials.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 10 Apr 2013, 19:00

Try rendering in blender, whatch a vid on how to render with cycles render
In blender it will help its very very good ,i remember you saying you wanted
To learn blender ,go for it and have fun

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Apr 2013, 21:13

Hopping from one render engine to the other doesnt help !
You need to start and master one of them and Kerkythea is the better render engine since its MLT but cycles render engine is GPU enabled and is much faster!
ALSO ! there is a trick to MLT rendering ... !!!!! You dont need that many cycles.. !
The advanced users of Kerkythea clean up the render in post pro ! That works surprisedly well !
BUT ! you need to learn that each of these stones need a seperate light and you also need to set up the
right material.. !
http://www.kerkythea.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1604"
http://www.kerkythea.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... 0322#60322"
http://www.kerkythea.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... 9300#79300"
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 Apr 2013, 15:13

Thanks Rayman! I tried noise removal and speckle removing effects in Paint Shop but they blurred the gems. I'll try to exclude them from the effects. How do the KT folks post process the MLT render? (I'll look at the links you gave again in case it is there.) I'll look at the diamonds on black scene and info and learn stuff.

I'm not hopping from renderer to renderer. I'm exploring different software for my post TS tool kit. Agreed, it is better to master something than be "Jack of all trades. Master of none." I'll settle on a couple of systems when I've explored several. One like KT for realistic things and one for creative or artistic things. I find KT limiting for creative things since its designed for realism.

The Daz render is just to see how the necklace would look on a person though if it looked great I might have used it as my contest entry.

I'll try fooling with KT glass, looking for KT jewel materials for photon mapping, or modifying the jewel material I used to work in PM. Either a PM render from that or the previous MLT one will be my entry.

Pugman1: Other than unseasonal cold delaying the beginning of grass mowing I won't have much time to learn Blender but it is next on my list. Since I can't afford to buy things Blender is probably going to be my main thing. Still want to try Messiah Studio (bought on a super bargain offer).

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 11 Apr 2013, 18:54

sharpening and noise removal should work well on MLT ! I also used paint shop pro it has a very effective noise removal tool !
you shouldnt need more then 40 cycles in MLT.....
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Apr 2013, 04:34

Baby Hulk happy! Emeralds green!

Unavailableartist · Post by **Unavailableartist** » 30 Apr 2013, 05:03

Funny...

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 30 Apr 2013, 14:30

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_would_your_pee_be_green"

answer:
...too much vitamin b or your the Hulk...

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 02 May 2013, 14:50

His face! lolz

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Dec 2016, 19:05

Need your help. My spiffy new gtx1060 has the horsepower to do caustics with Iray in a reasonable time. Great for the jewels. I'm trying to change the top of the neck for the display due to messy mesh there. So I deleted the polys on top but now neither Hexagon nor TS will close the hole or solidify the object. I'll probably start over with the original and try to neaten the mesh another way but if any of you can close the many edged hole at the top of the neck I'd appreciate it. Blender, Softimage? Here's the obj file.

Also what is the Abbe number of Emerald or Beryl?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 05 Dec 2016, 12:58

Wha? The workspace won't close it up? it has a really good "Fill Hole", all you have to do is loop select the hole edge.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 05 Dec 2016, 13:07

I capped it for you in the Workspace.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Dec 2016, 15:59

Workspace is not to be used. However, since you sold your soul to that devil to cap this: Thanks! I tried the "close" function in Hexagon but it didn't recognize the opening as a hole. I tried various tricks too. No luck. I wasn't looking forward to fixing the messy geometry by pushing vertices and edges. Thanks again!

Things I learned about Iray caustics: Architectural mode (MLT) takes a long time. It produces simplified caustics. The color is projected but not much focusing effect. Architectural + caustics takes too long even for the new card. Regular mode (path tracing I think) plus caustics produces a good effect much quicker.

I can't find the Abbe number of emerald or beryl anywhere. I read that doesn't have much fire, colorful sparkles like diamond, so numbers for glass are good enough.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 05 Dec 2016, 18:28

Will this chart help?

http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/refractive-index.php"

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Dec 2016, 06:13

Thanks Steinie but that's not it. No problem. The Abbe number of glass will work since emeralds don't have much dispersion anyway.

I had much trouble getting a good UV so the texture looked right on the bust. I got Sculptris so I let it do the UV and painted the model there and exported the UV'ed bust and the texture. Daz-Iray likes that. However, Hexagon won't put the texture on it correctly. The texture image from Sculprtis looks like what is on the Hexagon picture. It is separate pieces for different areas of the model. So Hexagon is not doing the UV right when importing the obj. I'll try to place the neclace on the bust in Daz. I hope to learn Blender this winter. Then physics, soft body, or cloth can place things like necklaces realistically.

Sculptris is great! However, it wouldn't import the bust until I changed several things. Polys with more than 4 points. Edges with more that 2 triangles attached. Bad geometry caused that. Vertices with too many triangle points on them.

The goal is a picture much like the earlier ones but more realistically rendered. I might make a jewelry store interior someday. I scaled characters (Daz free stuff not my work) to average US height* and used them to scale the counter. Does the counter look right? I think it should be taller with the main surface at female waist height.

*Average adult height for US caucasians: male 5'10" (178.2cm) female 5'5" (165cm). Hmm, I'd have guessed an average lady is 5'9".

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 09 Dec 2016, 10:38

Finis why do you still fight with all those apps , you must learn blender .sorry you can do what you like .
even 3d world mag sees blender as one of the top software to date .
glass in blender is so easy modeing has so many tools that ts das and other software does not have .
and the help to lern it youtube has the answer for any prob or anything you need to learn.
A couple of mounths and you will not regret the move . maya users are now using blender because its mors efficient work flow .
but you ca do what you like just trying to help you bud..

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 09 Dec 2016, 13:29

Whatever gets the job done with the most pleasure.. or in other words: whatever floats your boat. Sometimes the workflow between apps and finding their strengths is the fun part I suppose - problem solving can be fun. I like the strength of trueSpace with the WS and MS. I like Softimage. I like Blender. I like Bryce to a degree. I like Mach Studio Pro 2. I like Krita. I like Inkscape. I like Unreal Engine. Every one is unique and brings something new to the table. It's the final image or video or game that really matters.

I do recommend trying to use Blender in part of your workflow. In my opinion I like Blender for many aspects and use it in my workflow: specifially UV's, texture making, Animatics and video editing, sometimes Motion Graphics. But... having started learning it... Using Blender is a fight in itself, as is Maya.

Blender is not my go to app over all, though it has it's perks having a complete 3D workflow in it (from 2D sketching, all 3D stuff to compositing and video editing)... because if you want it for animation with ease: it doesn't have animation layers and you can't layer/offset animation clips - something that has existed in Maya and Softimage for a very long time and is a requirement for Mocap and library based animation for quick and large productions. I won't put all my effort into it till that area has drastically improved.

It's not the end all solution, and studios going to Blender also know the fact that 30 perpetual licenses of a $3000 dollar per seat application (or just constant infinate pricing being rented out) is a no brainer to go have a similar software opensource and free forever.

But do use it. It's useful.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Dec 2016, 19:04

I use Hexagon, Daz-Iray-3Delight, and a little TS (geometry paint is awesome) because they are free and it's what I have. Blender is definitely on my to do list. Hopefully I'll get started with it while I have some free time this winter.

As a hobbyist who wants to do more than I have been an all-in-one program with plenty of power that is cheap is best. Blender is that. Maybe a few other tools that do specific things better or easier. Draise, sure use what works for you but with too many moving stuff between them becomes troublesome, you have to learn many UI's, and "Jack of all trades, master of none". To each his own though. Some can handle juggling several programs and others will stop doing CG if they can't use TS. The learning curve is initially steep for Blender but look at what those who met that challenge can do. Many people have learned it so you can too.

Look at pic1 and pic2. Do you see any difference? Which looks better? Especially with regard to the emeralds and caustics. One of them rendered in 4 minutes and the other in 25. Still needs work on UV's, lighting, placement, and camera view, and the emeralds need something.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 10 Dec 2016, 23:21

They look practically the same. Go for the 4 minute one in future!

Just a tip, add more specular/reflection to the gems as they do sort of look a little plasticy.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 13 Dec 2016, 08:22

Abt identical, but I think the second one is better only because it seems a bit more in focus and a bit more lit.

... um, abt Blender. If you're going to spend time learning anything abt a new program, make the effort for Blender (only when i approached it as if I knew nothing about 3D software usage was I able to make any headway. Start the process that way).
Great renderers (internal is easy, 'Cycles' you have to learn nodes but quite diverse), sculpting for overall convenience/efficiency i prefer it over zbrush nowadays, VERY stable so far, animating works well and when it don't you can figure out why, so... yeah.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Dec 2016, 21:40

The lighting is now a emissive plane and a model to make a ceiling with light panels plus a spot light on the necklace. More specular reflection on the gems. Iray in Daz has a metalicity/roughness system and a specular/glossy system. Nearly all the shaders available use the metalicity one ironically with "metalicity" set to zero. I switched to the spec/gloss one and that got the bright facets on the gems. Using regular render mode plus caustics (pic1 above) since neither you nor I saw much difference adding MLT (pic2).

Resizing and jpg compression weren't friendly to the hard won caustics.

I watched intro to Blender videos. While acknowledging they are very basic, which is good, that's what I want, it was funny that Blender is soooo difficult that I watched the videos at 1.5X speed.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 17 Dec 2016, 19:09

Making perfume bottles. Watch out Marcel!

The liquid object is a copy of part of the inner reservoir, solidified, normals flipped to point inward, and made slightly larger than the reservoir per a tutorial I saw. In this experiment the two bumpy bottles on the left have liquid that is slightly smaller than the reservoir. I see no difference from the normals flipped or not.

See how most of my bottles the liquid appears to fill the bottle to the outer surface as if the glass had no thickness? Photos of perfume bottles often look like that but some don't. In some photos the shape of the reservoir is visible. I think glass with different refraction is what does that. I'll use the "to the edge" ones since most photos show it.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 18 Dec 2016, 21:17

Experiments with water in glass. Daz-Iray render.

The back row has thick glass. Front row has thin glass. The four on the left have the red water object a little bigger than the inside of the hollow glass sphere while the four on the right have it smaller. The orientation of the normals of the water makes no difference. A test with just water spheres confirmed this. From left to right the tests have normals in, out, in, out. So the size of the water object relative to the inside of the container is the important thing. That makes the liquid color permeate the entire object or makes the glass more visible. With small liquid objects the reflections are bright. Photos of perfume bottles show both effects.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 20 Dec 2016, 18:27

A label for the bottles. I'll wait until I learn Blender to put labels on the other bottles. Blender's cloth or softbody and physics system can place the cord easier than manually fitting it and it would be more realistic. The text says "Perfume of Finis" in Futurama's Alienese 2.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Dec 2016, 05:03

That's it for now. I'll put my CG effort into learning Blender so not many pictures from me for a while.

I got results for the emeralds more like what I want by experimenting in a test scene. I started by applying the standard diamond material to my jewel model with a light emitting panel above and a spotlight. I adjusted camera position until I saw bright facets. Then I changed the IOR and Abbe to settings for emerald. I found that the IOR influences the brightness of the bright facets. Then I experimented with the color. A tutorial said to use the glossy color but I found that the transmitted color worked better but emerald green rgb made them shiny black. The transmitted color had to be much lighter. Emeralds usually aren't clear so I made the base color emerald green and the refraction strength (roughly equals transparency) less than 100%. Iray renderer.

More here.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 23 Dec 2016, 09:29

Darn good I'd say. Hard pressed to find flaw in the necklace one, and, that's looks like mighty fine alien brandy.

@ Blender comment.

United3dArtists Archive

Jewelry U3DAC April

Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April

Re: Jewelry U3DAC April