United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 17 Oct 2012, 17:44

I'll try to do one with Hexagon and Daz-3Delight GI.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 18 Oct 2012, 22:36

It would be great to have you enter something to the Challenge Finis. The great thing about the Challenges (for me) is it forces me to keep active with 3D regardless of my experience within the topic. I wish more people here had the drive to keep at it no matter what the circumstances like you have. Looking forward to your next entry using new software.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Oct 2012, 16:36

Here is an Ionic column made in Hexagon 2.5. It still needs the abacus and details.

The volute's spirals are a shape extruded along a helix. Hexagon has some sculpting ability and I'll replace these spirals with sculped ones. Some detailed areas will be left simple for bump or displacement maps.

Hexagon is pretty good. Things where TS is better:
- Primitives. Hexagon has no torus and lacks the TS model side primitive control panels. Many shapes can be made with TS's primitive controls. There is a "sculptie" torus and other primitives for second life but I find no converter to change them to regular primitives.

Steinie, "regardless of my experience within the topic". I like that about challenges. They encourage artists to grow and develop new skills. A challenge topic might require learning or trying new stuff so an artist must ask "how can I do that?" instead of "what can I do with what I already know?". I don't know if I have drive. It is more like an escape from circumstances to something I like. Speaking of circumstances, time to work.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 19 Oct 2012, 16:58

Happy to see you joined in, nice start

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Oct 2012, 02:56

Thanks Pugman.

The volutes/capital is trouble. I've tried using an image for a height map in Bryce. Too rough. Tried displacement brush in Hexagon. Too rough and imprecise. Tried making several objects to Boolean and bend. Couldn't union them. Strange results with some. Tried to bend as a weld (not a union and not a group, not sure what weld is) and the bend tool would bend every way except the way I needed. Deform cage might do it but some parts were separate like a group and separated with bend so I doubt the cage would work.

I'll probably give it a simple capital or a made up style so I can get the scene done. The columns don't have to be any real style. Vaguely Greek or Roman or ancient looking will do.

Sometime, I'll try the ionic column top with a different strategy of parts and Booleans or by sculpting it in point edit. For some shapes that's the only way.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Oct 2012, 05:38

Much extruding of helices, extruding of line profiles, Booleans, SDS, and decimation. This 3000 ploygon volute will do.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Oct 2012, 21:46

Columns! 39K polygons each. The volutes could be thinner and need detail on the edges. Real ionic columns are slimmer with the main column height 8 times the diameter and over 20 flutes. These will do for this project.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Oct 2012, 02:19

I tried sending this to Daz Studio for texturing and rendering. It has simple texutres from Hexagon since Daz uses that in its texturing system. The Hexagon-Daz bridge (uh oh, a bridge) required a ton of answers for each object and distorted the size of some.

Exporting as obj didn't work well either. The surface areas were there for texturing but it was all one object in Daz even though I checked the use groups box. TS imported the obj with the plug-in and there were separate objects but they were based on materials even though I unchecked the group by material box. There was only one group though I checked the preserve groups box.

Looks like obj files are not a good way to send thing between these programs. I'm wondering if Hexagon and Daz are useful for this large scene multi-model type of work. Daz is really for human figures so it might be made for simple scenes. Hexagon can handle many objects, so far, but if they can't be exported intact ... at least it didn't insist on triangulating everything.

I don't like Hexagon's export system. For obj it tries to export everything so you have to hide or delete all but the objects to export. It won't export just the selected items. It may be meant to model just single items and not complex scenes. Maybe other file types will export/import well.

I'm trying these programs to see what they can do and if or how I can use them. Daz looks good for characters, rigging, and posing. It's not ready to use 3Delight's GI but if I can get my scenes into it then it could be good for regular renders.

I'll continue with these tools for this challenge. Regular render, GI will take took long. Then I think it is time to try Blender and Messiah.

This image, from Daz, looks ok but it is all one object and there is a flaw in the geometry. About 180K polygons. I found there were duplicate items in the columns.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 23 Oct 2012, 02:38

iInteresting, I wonder if the export system of Hexagon is like the FBX system, of scenes or entires systems..

Thanks for all the updates.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 23 Oct 2012, 21:15

Is that a lil Greek I see in ya Finis? Nice work on the column.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 24 Oct 2012, 05:35

Thanks Dragneye.

Draise wrote:iInteresting, I wonder if the export system of Hexagon is like the FBX system, of scenes or entires systems.

Don't know but .dae and .fbx export from Bryce didn't make files.

Here is a DS scene with colonnade and amphitheater-like banquet area done in Hexagon and plants done in Bryce. To be textured in DS. Close to 600K polygons. Non-GI rendered in 4 minutes but doesn't look different than the realtime OGL view. Textures and lights should improve it. The two column thing needs to go somewhere. Any suggestions where? There will be sloped ground with plants around it.

I might try Ivy Generator to grow some on things. Tried that but the planes or shapes for the leaves are single sided. TS's double sided render option fixes that but I haven't found that in DS.

The idea is a public outdoor eating area in ancient Greece or maybe Rome. People might gather for a festival, holiday, or celebration which might be catered or just go there informally. They would take mats or cushions to sit on and eat from bowls.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 28 Oct 2012, 03:12

Bryce trees to Hexagon to Daz Studio ...

There is a bridge between these programs but I want to be able to use the models in various programs.

I've been learning to make plants in Bryce, modify them in Hexagon, and use them in Daz. Bryce trees are high poly if you just export them to obj. The leaves are geometry even to pine needles. One fir tree that looked good was 1.6 million polygons. So I found ways to lower the ploy count and make good trees with transparency mapped leaves.

Bryce tree trunks are metaballs in Bryce and when exported to obj have parts not connected to the main part. I have not tried one exported at 100%.

In Bryce:
- Make a tree using the "user" leaf which is a square. Dogwood and Lime are low poly too I think.
- Save it as a Bryce scene so you can modify it if needed or make variations.
- Export it with 70% or more trunk resolution.
- Note, holding Ctrl while left mouse button dragging in the tree preview will zoom and rotate.

In Heaxgon:
- Import the tree.
- Hide Leaves.
- Problem: Trunk is made of separate tris and is very straight.
o Solution: Unify trunk and displace parts with soft selection.
o Select entire trunk with auto select and rectangle. Can be slow.
o Use Average Weld tool to merge close vertices. If imported with 1 unit = 1 cm then set weld to 0.005. Reduced vertices from 80K to 11K and polys from 29K to 25K. Patience. It will take a while.
o Use soft select to move parts of the trunk for more realistic appearance.
- Apply cylindrical uv to trunk.
- Unhide leaves. Group leaves and trunk. Export to obj.

In Daz:
- Import tree.
- Scale.
- Texture.

Here is a pine made this way. The textures are images from cgtextures. I made a mask for the leaves. Six or seven minutes render in default set up.

Now to texture the columns and seats, make ground, make a sky, and do lighting.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Oct 2012, 04:23

I think I'll change the layout. This doesn't have to be authentic but without people and props to show they are eating this layout looks more like an amphitheater. I found little on ancient Greek dining halls. One reference showed people reclining on a broad bench or platform around the edge of a rectangular room. No table or chairs.

I'll change the layout to have a square lined with a platform and steps down to a sunken area between. Colonnades will surround that on at least three sides and the smaller column structure will mark the area's entrance along a path. The entabulature above the columns so it is not so broad on top.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Oct 2012, 20:13

This is the paved and constructed area. Grass and trees will surround it.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Oct 2012, 03:36

. . . . . . . .

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Oct 2012, 04:06

Well, I'm frustrated with the UV's. Just applying the cubic one to a section in Hexagon doesn't produce good results, stretched, and adjusting it isn't working well either. I don't want to have to unwrap and fool with it just to UV simple things. Cubic projection should work fine on the sections of the entabulature. In TS it would so TS beats Hexagon there.

It is also frustrating to have to go between Hexagon and DS. Not bad if I could rely on a mostly one way process but trial and error to get the UV right isn't going to happen when I have to go back and forth between programs.

Edit: 10-30-12 I built a new an extrusion from a rectangular face to test UV's. It is . It was better but there is still stretching that TS would have done better and the UV tools, except unfold, don't help. TS makes a decent UV as an object is built but Hexagon's is distorted until you apply a UV. One effort that looked ok at first in DS messed up when tiling was applied. Some areas good others not. So it looks like any object other than simple primitives, even if it is an obvious candidate for the cubic map, must be unwrapped and manually mapped in Hexagon.

The Daz package has some use but it is not what I need. I'll finish this project and then learn Blender and Messiah Studio.

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 30 Oct 2012, 18:10

These might be of interest, there is definitely a banquet going on in amongst those columns somewhere!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 30 Oct 2012, 18:58

I like where you're heading with the project! And the people posed in the set ads to it for sure! If you go all hardcore like in the pictures, man you'd be a winner!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 31 Oct 2012, 04:03

Thanks Saul. Those pictures reinforce what I read about Greeks eating while reclining and show the style of pottery etc.

Thanks Draise. The people are the default figure and pre-made poses from DAZ so I can't use them for the challenge. They are for scaling the objects. Customizing them would be easy and make them as acceptable as the Bryce trees but I'd have to make clothes for them and that is not so easy. People would enrich the scene though.

I read that they didn't have restaurants but did gather for a "symposium". There they drank diluted wine and ate. They were seated in order by social status. Wives were not allowed but a female entertainer and mistresses were. The entertainer, usually beautiful, would play an instrument and might sing. I read that she might provide "other services" for a price. While that might mean prostitution context in the article favored the services being more wholesome like dancing or reciting stories.

UV's: The objects except the entabulature's have OK UV's. I'll try either unwrapping the trouble objects or more likely separating the trouble areas.

Attempts to render this with progressive rendering used all the memory and crashed. Non-progressive rendering worked with little memory use and rendered this 1,000,000 polygon scene in about 3 minutes. Most of the trees are instances.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Nov 2012, 19:20

Alright, I got the trouble parts UV'ed. They were camfered to look more real but in order to mark seams for unfolding I use the simple ones. So they have sharp edges.

Ground and a few more plants now. Trying lighting created this accidental art.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Nov 2012, 00:50

Lighting and rendering is giving me trouble. With simple lighting and no shadows it can render the one million polygon scene in minutes but shadows crash it if there are too many polygons. The realtime gpu working render can move the scene at about one frame per second with no shadows. I'm not sure if indirect light or GI is possible with all these polys. So far that crashes it too. Probably would take too long to render with GI anyway.

I may have to change the outdoor forested scene to something less demanding. I could use background images but I want tree shadows on the architecture. Billboard plants could work but they don't look that real and I'm going for realism on this one.

Christmas is soon. You all save up and get me 16 cores of liquid cooled dual Xeon 3.1 GHz render power http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Professi ... s_P900DX-S. I configured one of these at a nice $14,000.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 03 Nov 2012, 08:24

Hi finis, we all have dreams but i can offer you a ati firepro v7800 2gig
for christmas if you like.first i must get my new cards 2 asus hd7950 oc.

Ps,do you need more time to finish this

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Nov 2012, 18:33

Thanks for offering the Firepro. The my card's gpu render is fine for working on the scene in wireframe. It renders a textured image in about a second which is fine for previews. The memory and cpu time for full renders is my limiting factor. But ... GPU rendering is great and becoming a standard so that card would be good for me. How much do you want for it? What about shipping?

It is better now. I saw an error on the render info screen and determined that it came from the instances of the trees. Amazingly, that and any ability to copy an object is something new in DS. It doesn't work so don't use DAZ instances in 4.5. I made full copies of trees by saving one to a file and merging it several times. So far it doesn't crash with 20 trees and hardly takes any memory above cruising. Pegs both cores at 100% and will take time for a quality render but I think it can be done.

Thanks for offering more time. I have most of the weekend off (unfortuantely, need work = money). I think I'll get it done. If necessary I'll enter a GPU rendered picture for the challenge. Thinking of making a walk through GPU animation if the rest is done and I learn how quick enough.

Here is a low quality test with raytraced shadows on non-instance trees, 30K polys each, 4 minutes. Raytraced shadows really crashed it before with the instances.

Daz Studio's raytraced shadows have a softness control. That works great and produces sharpness near an object and fuzziness farther from it.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Nov 2012, 04:41

Here is an image with textures and one sun light. Medium quality render took 12 minutes. The hardware render took 5.4 seconds and looks like the working view except that it has shadows.

The perspective seems off. The columns on the left lean too much. That may be some fish eye effect from the camera. Displacement maps didn't work on the ground. It is not a solid and that may be the problem. I wanted displacement to de-straighten the edge of the base. Maybe that can be hidden out of frame or with plants. A little grunge would be good but that looks hard to do with DS's texture system.

I think a semi GI render is possible. The photon mapping camera and lights probably too much memory or take too long with several trees. I might try it after I have an image for the challenge.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Nov 2012, 01:03

The challenge deadline was yesterday but voting hasn't started yet. I'll enter this GPU render and replace with a regular render if I get one done before voting. Pugman, feel free to disqualify me since I was late.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Nov 2012, 05:07

Here it is. 38 minutes render time. Could be higher quality but too much render time.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 05 Nov 2012, 16:06

Na your in. Now i have to work out how to set up the voting

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Nov 2012, 19:39

Thanks Pugman.

Possible animation on the way. The animation is for fun and it contains the humans which I didn't make so it is not for the challenge. It will be a GPU render.

Doing the finished image I learned that high poly count can render faster than transparency. The render worked for a long time on areas with trees which have transparency mapped textures for leaves but blazed through the 48K poly foreground plants with no transparency.

The finished images uses one distant (infinite, sun) light and the UberEnvironment (UE) light with no shadows. Experiments show that a mega-render of lights plus UE in GI bounce mode crash the program. However, UE "Indirect lighting with directional shadows" kept going and didn't grow in demands for memory. I estimated 30+ hours to render so that is out.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Nov 2012, 21:43

780 frames as numbered images in 23 minutes. Unfortunately, I can't merge them into a movie. Ulead VideoStudio 11 will read the frame images but insists on giving each one 3 seconds. It is like a slide show. Also the images either were corrupted or not made right at first. After trying MS movie maker and UVS 11 many files had half one image and half another and didn't change except in large groups.

... Checked small images in a test sequence. They are the same for long runs and then suddenly jump ahead. Daz isn't making them right. The animation timeline is simple and easy to use but doesn't give much control or any helpful tools either ... and doesn't work since it doesn't make correct images sequences which I can't assemble into a movie anyway. Giving up on a movie with this.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Nov 2012, 02:29

I got the movie done. I hadn't selected the camera and the frames where being made from the view of another object. Ulead VideoStudio with some wrangling was able to movie-ize the frames.

trueBlue · Post by **trueBlue** » 06 Nov 2012, 03:03

Not sure if you noticed:
vi ... 23&start=0"

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Nov 2012, 01:47

Thanks Trueblue. I got Video Studio to make the movie but I'm surprised it doesn't have better tools for using numbered sequences of images.

Made a 480p animation mostly to Youtube's specs. Looks better. Edited earlier post with new Youtube thing. Looks best if you go to Youtube to watch on medium size player at 480.

What I have found so far:

Daz is not good for animation like this. Simple character animations maybe. It is good for rendering but lacks some of TS's Lightworks abilities like layers and independent tiling. There is not a full interface to 3Delight's abilities in Daz but it is easy to use. Daz is good at making characters by modifying its base character. I made Baby Hulk with Daz. He hasn't destroyed the dining hall yet! It may be good for rigging original characters. I have heard Blender is better.

Hexagon has some great abilities. The worst thing I've found is the obj file writing. That includes everything that you don't delete. The UV tools are not pleasant but are usable.

Bryce is not Vue but it can do some good landscapes. Its trees have too straight trunks and the tree lab results are not as predictable as they should be. Marcel has shown the power of Bryce's renderer.

Daz has animation plug in but it is meant for characters of course since that is what Daz is for. I think Daz, Hexagon, and Bryce have a place in my tool kit but, as noted before, I'll try Blender and Messiah next. I think they are likely to provide what I need.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Nov 2012, 16:50

. . . . . . . . . . .

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 09 Nov 2012, 17:14

Hulk Smash!

Don't feel bad, you have lots of company.
Plenty have been felled by the mighty Saul in the old caliGallery.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Nov 2012, 17:46

Baby Hulk is mad that I didn't enter him in the cartoon character challenge so he destroys my projects. He needs diapers. He has briefs since that came free with the program.

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 09 Nov 2012, 20:56

Finis wrote:Baby Hulk is mad that I didn't enter him in the cartoon character challenge ....

No problem Finis, next challenge will see what he is made of!

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 10 Nov 2012, 03:28

Cool movie Finis!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Nov 2012, 03:36

Thanks y'all.

Here is a building based on the previous one. It is for an interior scene so the roof is just to seal the top. The idea is an open building with curtains between the columns.

I'm using regular lights and an "indirect light camera". I started the project with the photon mapping lights and camera but they are complicated. Just the IDL camera produces similar results and is fairly simple to use. The light does bounce and bleed colors.

The curtains have translucency. There is a distant (infinite) light to the left (in pictures 1 and 2) with a slight yellow color for the sun and another slightly blue one to the right for the sky. Environment lights didn't work with the translucency.

BH_Curtains_IDL_1 took 27 minutes to render. Still splotchy at those quality settings. The final will probably take a long time to render. Number 2 has 4 light bounces and I think the brightness is right. I'll brighten the sky light some.

Not sure what I can do with this for the November challenge or if it qualifies. Saul?

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 12 Nov 2012, 06:44

This is looking really cool!
It is very welcome to November challenge!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Nov 2012, 02:32

I'm rendering one with the indirect/bounce light camera at reasonable size and quality. It is 42% done and has been rendering while I cut down 5 Italian Cypresses, went shopping, and set up the lap top = 5.5 hours. I'm writing from the lap top my sister gave me because Daz liked to crash on test renders if I did other stuff. Looks good so far. The curtains have some streaks that look like features of cloth but they are render issues. I fixed some of that before by subdividing. Translucency and lighting is great. Just like I wanted. Test renders went faster at this point so maybe it won't take 10 hours.

I'll do something with regular lighting for the challenge.

Need one of these for these GI renders. Supercomputers: My state bought a supercomputer several years ago. They wanted to rent time on it. One of the few to rent it used it for CG for a Shrek movie!

I'll finish rigging Hear-O to learn about that part of DAZ. Then it is on to Blender and Messiah.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Nov 2012, 15:45

Rendered in 9 hours 49 minutes 30.60 seconds. The photon mapping lights and camera might be faster but still too long.

This has one distant light for the sun on the left and one distant light with blurry shadows for the sky. The top picture has brightness and contrast adjusted and the bottom is original. There are artifacts on the curtains that make bright vertical streaks. The streaks run along edges in the geometry. It also may be realted to the curtains thinness. They are solids since Daz only does single sided planes so plane curtains don't look right from one side. Another light bounce and slight blur for sun shadows might improve it but at 10 hours each I won't make any more GI renders with this.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 13 Nov 2012, 19:23

Wait, what?
Cut down 5 Italian Cypresses?

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 13 Nov 2012, 20:28

The streaks could be happy accidents, i thought initially they were the light coming from the sides of the curtain.... untill i read your post! Maybe some diffuse light casting through the curtains, they look too thin not to be defining some light shapes.
I mean the columns would be casting darker shadows than the curtains.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Nov 2012, 20:55

spacekdet wrote:Wait, what? Cut down 5 Italian Cypresses?

It is hard to believe that I had work to do. I've had almost nothing for a couple of weeks or more. It doesn't look good.

Saul wrote:I mean the columns would be casting darker shadows than the curtains.

Yes. The shadows should be like you said with the seats lit up more from light through the curtains. That's what I wanted but now that you spotted that I see it is not lit like that. I thought a test render did that. Maybe that was with photon mappers. Also, now I wonder how much of the bounced light came through the curtains. Maybe none. It seems that it would be brighter. I think I'm through trying GI with Daz but if I wasn't I'd experiment with a little transparency plus translucency or subsurface scattering (now there's some render time!) to prevent a clear image through the transparency.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Nov 2012, 03:41

This is an experiment with make ivy 2012. It took 3.5 hours to render. Daz has "shading rate", among other settings, that control quality vs. speed. Default is 1 (quality) and this was done with shading rate = 10 (speed). That is why it is blurry. So a high quality one would take forever. There is no IDL or GI. The leaves are almost planes. They didn't have the single sided problem. They have textures with transparency maps and that is why it took so long to render. I would have stopped it but it was looking artistic. A test with no transparency took only 7 minutes.

Unless make ivy has an option to make geometry for leaves instead of using transparency then I probably won't be able to put ivy on the columns. This does have a zillion leaves. I'll try one more with it set to make few leaves.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Nov 2012, 18:34

Testing possibilities using high poly instead of transparency for plants. I tried bushes with poly leaves and the columns. With 600K polys, one environment light no shadows, one distant/infinite light with shadows, no GI, and decent quality settings it took 4 minutes to render. With more bushes to a total of 900K polys no settings would render. Memory errors or "program has become unstable".

Conclusion: Use the right tool for the job. For outdoor or landscape scenes with plants that is Bryce, given no money for Vue.
Conclusion: My computer is a powerhouse of its time but I can't do some things I'd like to without a modern supercomputer. I will probably never be able to get a new one.

Bryce has done test scenes on my machine with forests of trees. I wish ivy generator would optionally create polygonal leaves and use user defined shapes.

I'll do a beauty render of the "curtains" version for the challenge if Saul authorizes that (rules say I must do an animation since I was in the previous challenge). The only animation I could do is what I have already done.

I'd like to try Blender's cloth abilities to animate the curtains in a slight breeze but given the learning curve I'll be lucky to make a cube in Blender within a couple of months.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 16 Nov 2012, 21:14

I tested Bryce with an Ivy object. UV map and alpha chanel are good. No transparency and the leaves have only 6600 polygons. No need more. Leaves and branchs can be grouped separately. It is useful to change the textur.

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 16 Nov 2012, 21:33

Finis wrote:I'll do a beauty render of the "curtains" version for the challenge if Saul authorizes that (rules say I must do an animation since I was in the previous challenge). The only animation I could do is what I have already done.

I like what you are doing, the persistence of endeavor?, i am happy with anything you come up with!
It would be nice, though, to see those curtains blowing in that warm Grecian breeze))

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 17 Nov 2012, 01:37

Saul, I'll do what I can. it will be slow start in Blender so I won't be able to do anything with it soon. I wish I could do the curtain animation. I might move the model into Bryce. I know a little about it so I've got a start there. Marcel's test shows it is good for ivy and I know it can do a forest. Further, it can do the trees without me fooling with them in Hexagon. That would follow my own advice too: use the right tool.

Thanks for the test Marcel. I'm guessing it didn't take long to render. The transparency I referred to was the transparency mask. I used the leaf textures and mask that came with ivy generator. Ivy Man's leaves had 140K polygons but I know that far fewer leaves will good.

... HELP! I tried to render Ivy Man in Bryce and I can't get the alpha mask to work. I used the material editor to put the leaf texture in the color channel and the balck and white mask in the alpha channel. What am I doing wrong?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 17 Nov 2012, 08:15

Try this setting. Don't forget to enable blend transparency if you use an alpha mask.
The zip is the Bryce material used for this test. You can install it (just put the files on the material folder, where you want).

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 17 Nov 2012, 13:53

Finis wrote:Testing possibilities using high poly instead of transparency for plants. I tried bushes with poly leaves and the columns. With 600K polys, one environment light no shadows, one distant/infinite light with shadows, no GI, and decent quality settings it took 4 minutes to render. With more bushes to a total of 900K polys no settings would render. Memory errors or "program has become unstable".

Conclusion: Use the right tool for the job. For outdoor or landscape scenes with plants that is Bryce, given no money for Vue.
Conclusion: My computer is a powerhouse of its time but I can't do some things I'd like to without a modern supercomputer. I will probably never be able to get a new one.

Bryce has done test scenes on my machine with forests of trees. I wish ivy generator would optionally create polygonal leaves and use user defined shapes.

I'll do a beauty render of the "curtains" version for the challenge if Saul authorizes that (rules say I must do an animation since I was in the previous challenge). The only animation I could do is what I have already done.

I'd like to try Blender's cloth abilities to animate the curtains in a slight breeze but given the learning curve I'll be lucky to make a cube in Blender within a couple of months.

Conclusion is wrong... you need a faster render engine which costs you a fraction of the money a new computer would cost you.
If you look at Kerythea and Thea they are from the same house and same person coded it but Thea is lower limit 5x faster then Kerkythea and in most cases you can even use it realtime...... Now comes the good part.... you can try it out yourself.. the only catch is that it renders with watermarks on
the testversion.... so new computer .. no but a good renderengine yes....... you dont need anything else since its standalone....and works with Truespace
just like Kerkythea did.....price is around 295$
Vue and bryce are for landscapes but they dont get you convincing hyperrealistic indoors... thats not the strength of those engines.....
Use Sketchup for making buildings and use Thea for the renders and make some bucks.....you have amortised the price in ONE job....
Who says you cant render the November chalange with a demo... !

You can make an animation or flythrough animation in the demo....

http://www.thearender.com/cms/index.php ... derer.html"

Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Nov 2012, 20:15

Thanks Marcel. Blend transparency fixed it. However, it is almost impossible to texture the vines. Bryce will crash often when I try to apply the texture (change in lab, click check mark) or when I try to save the scene. I made new less detailed ivy and it is better but still crashes unpredictably. It does render quickly but I'd like to complete texturing and lighting and be able to save it.

I'd guess that the complexity of the ivy is too much for my machine but the memory and cpu use are not high and Bryce can handle the banquet hall with curtains at 700,000 polys. Maybe ivy generator doesn't make good geometry sometimes or there are lots of intersecting shapes.

Odd ivy thing. I imported standing man into make ivy, grew ivy, and exported it. Then I imported the ivy and then standing man into Bryce. One was reversed and one was not. One was flipped on one axis. Also, guy vs. ivy size now did not match even though it was grown on him. Bryce had no flip options for import so I flipped it in Hexagon where the sizes were right too.

Thanks Rayman. I'm sure Thea would be great for architectural renderings. That would be a right tool for that job. Bryce/Vue are the right tools for landscapes. I have to learn and produce some evidence that I can do this first. Maybe the demo Thea can be my classroom. Might try it. Messiah's super render might be fast enough too. Someone wrote that it is Arnold's ancestor.

Poor people math: $295 = $16,000,000,000,000 (America's debt) = $infinite. If you have earned "expendable income" then you can risk investing it in something. That's how businesses/wealth is created (oops, sorry, "You didn't build that") -- someone had the guts to take a risk. There's a difference between risk and stupid. To a poor person money is food. Maybe when I'm self trained, can demonstrate ability, and find clients so I'll probably get my food back before I starve then I hope to try it.

My graphics card is not very powerful. Someone offered me a good one. Have to check if my system can use it.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Nov 2012, 20:52

I give up. No ivy in Bryce. It is not possible to texture it. Nothing but crashes.

I'll do a curtains building render in Daz for the challenge.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 20 Nov 2012, 22:37

Finis wrote:I give up. No ivy in Bryce. It is not possible to texture it. Nothing but crashes.

I'll do a curtains building render in Daz for the challenge.

Finis you give up to fast.....
If you have a problem you have to think about a solution...
In case of a bryce render you dont have to render the ivy on all collums at once....
render ivy on every column seperatly and the comp it together in postpro..
then load the whole scene as a backdrop....
Bryce´s engine is 10 years old .....its not optimised for high polycount nor does it use instancing to cut down
on poly count.. on top of that the ivy creator produces real geometry.. it doesnt use alphas for the leaves like
tree generators inside Vue do...
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Nov 2012, 04:56

I gave up after extensive effort most of which was uncalled for since neither Bryce nor ivy are necessary for a nice image for the contest.

I can't do ivy columns one at a time in Bryce and then post process because I can't texture ivy in Bryce. "Use the right tool for the job." Daz will texture and render the ivy so, if I insist on ivy, the solution is not to fight with Bryce but to render in Daz. I think different lighting and simpler ivy will speed it up some.

Bryce will handle at least 700K actual polygons. That's the building and it rendered quickly with a simple texture. Bryce has instancing. Here is an image rendered in Bryce in 2.5 minutes with default render settings and light (sky). It has 2.5 million polygons, or would without instancing. Terrain 500K polys, Standing Man 27K polys, and 74 instanced clone brothers. They have an ivy leaf texture with alpha transparency. That's why parts of them seem to be missing. I did get one crash when applying texture to a group of 27 instances in an earlier version of this.

Maybe that was an earlier version that Bryce 7 that didn't have that stuff.

I exported several Bryce trees to obj to prepare in Hexagon for use in Daz. One had more than a million polys and geometry down to pine needles. Others had varying degrees of geometry but mostly used alpha's for the leaves.

Ivy generator's vines are geometry. The leaves are simple with two triangles each and alpha maps. See image of ivy generator low poly leaves viewed in Hexagon.

For the challenge I want to try the building with fewer curtains in front and a view of the ocean and trees. It may be a Daz/Bryce hybrid depending on my decision to give up the curtains, or translucency for the curtains, or give up the ivy, or keep it all. Ocean and trees environment image from Bryce and Daz for translucent curtains and ivy should work. Gobo lights could simulate shadows of trees near the building. No GI lighting.

Any ideas how to simulate light through the curtains in Bryce. It's fast render is appealing.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 21 Nov 2012, 08:43

what I read here, is common. it should be noted that the right choice of tools depends not only on what we do. The hardware can also determine this.
Yes Bryce can work with a large polycount. But he needs RAM. Yes Bryce can use Ivy with textures and alpha channel. On my gtx 680, ivy is displayed with the mask and in real time, even with hugely polygons. No Bryce does not crash (not at home).
On photorealistic rendering, I say that it is fantastic but provided refine the modeling and textures. Otherwise, the realism is not credible. The examples shown often do not specify hours of work necessary to get there when we are demanding. Quality has a price and believe that just a click away to believe an artist is a scam marqueting common for dreamers.
This leads to the conclusion that the human factor is decisive in the choice of tool. A tractor and a race car does not use the same road, though the driver can decide otherwise. The important thing is to get to your destination.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 21 Nov 2012, 09:53

"Any ideas how to simulate light through the curtains in Bryce."

Duplicate the curtains and shift slightly.
the first which is visible, do not cast shadow.
Whoever is behind, cast shadow, and it can be transparent. the shadow will be clearer.
The interest :the intensity of the curtain and the intensity of the shadow can be adjusted separately.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Nov 2012, 16:58

Rayman, I read my stuff there and it sounds negative or unappreciative of your advice. Not meant that way at all. You know how tone doesn't come through in writing (unless you're a great writer). Gotta get that Thea demo! Not for the challenge but have to try it. Great renderer for the 3D work hopes if I can just get into a situation where I can try that.

Yeah Marcel. Different projects or goals need different methods and tools. Human factor, your right. Give me the same paints and brushes as Michelangelo and you still won't get the Sistine Chapel. Yep, no magic button to make a great image without work and ability.

I only have interest in accurate realistic images for hopes of making some money that way. We all want to be Prodigy! I mostly find images made with the goal of being accurate to real life boring and have little interest in making them for fun. The technical aspects can be interesting. A realistic image can be art. Marcel's Thirsty Tree, the work of many photographers, etc. An interesting image has something more than reality. No dreams, no creativity, no imagination, no art = low interest. Things can look more real by using art rather than accuracy to give them that look. I remember you (Marcel) noting something like that about your perfume bottle images.

Bryce certainly does crash with the ivy for me. So much that I can't texture it. The memory and cpu use was not large. That Marcel has no trouble with it implies it is a difference in systems or setup or that ivy is only sometimes flawed. That I have very little trouble without ivy in Bryce but much trouble with it implies a flaw in the ivy causes it. That Daz likes the ivy implies it isn't the ivy itself. So conflicting evidence about why.

I did note this about Ivy crashes: Giving the whole thing (vines and man and both leaf types) a single (leaf with alpha) texture didn't crash often. Giving anything, even the man or vines, a different texture was crash city. The crashes occurred when I pressed the check mark to apply the texture or when saving the scene.

I'll try some Bryce ivy things one more time. 1. Try the thing Marcel uploaded here. 2. Try new simple ivy with no man or anything else.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Nov 2012, 18:02

Contnued Bryce-Make Ivy problem debugging.

The textures: I am using Ivy Generator 2012. Some textures come with it. They are .png files called efeu0.png, efeu_alpha.png, efeu1.png, and efeu_branch.png. They are new leaf, new leaf black and white alpha, mature leaf, and vine. Note there is no efeu1_alpha. The given alpha mask is close enough to efeu1 to use with it except for close ups.

TEST: cubes

I made two cubes in Bryce by pressing the cube icon and moving one up.

Applying the ivy leaf textures to cubes:
A - New leaf applied to one then mature leaf to the other. Result: both have the mature texture.
B - New leaf applied to one. Result: both change to new leaf.
C - New leaf applied to top. Result: bottom cube no longer visible in render.
D - The material Marcel uploaded applied to bottom. Result: each cube has its own texture.

This test may show the problem but not clearly. Maybe I am applying the textures wrong. Maybe they don't work the way I think and it uses texture instances by default. Maybe you must make a .mat material and use that. Maybe .... something is obviously wrong when both cubes change.

Also, I noted that Marcel's material is for the mature leaf and its alpha map matches the leaf. Ivy Generator 2012 only has one for the new leaf.

Marcel, how did you make this material? Do you use IG 2012 or the original? Did you use the alpha mask file or somehow use the png alpha if any? Did you make the mature leaf alpha mask?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Nov 2012, 18:12

How I made Bryce textures. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Select object and click M to enter materials lab.
Click column A dot for diffuse.
Enter Pictures editor and load leaf image and alpha mask image.
Click check mark to return to materials lab.
Set materials lab settings as shown.
Click check mark. This is where crashes usually happen.

Why do both cubes change? Why don't they both change if one gets or has Marcel's material?

When I select the other cube, click M, and enter the materials lab to give it its own texture the texture I worked on last is shown either at that time or when I enter the picture editor. Am I creating a new texture unique to the selected object or modifying and applying the previous one (a texture instance applied to two objects?)?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Nov 2012, 18:52

Success! ..... sort of.

I made the new leaf texture as above. Then I save it as a material. Then I applied it and Marcel's material for the mature leaf to the ivy with the man. Note: it now has two Materials not two Textures. No crashes and it would save the scene. Applying textures, not materials, to the vine and man didn't break anything or crash and would save and render. Everything worked as it should.

What's the sort of? I'm now unsure of how to texture/give materials to objects in Bryce. Applying a texture, not saved material, to the ivy was nothing but crashes and unpredictable weirdness. Yet that works fine with non-ivy objects. Is it standard practice to make materials and save them and then apply them in Bryce? Can't I select objects, make a texture from images, and apply to just the selected object without saving as a material?

Must be time to watch some Bryce texturing tutorials.

At least now I can have ivy, even though mysteriously by following a ritual, in Bryce. So using Marcel's curtain method I'll do an all Bryce columns wth ivy, curtains, ocean, plants scene.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 21 Nov 2012, 19:57

Some change on a Bryce texture are sometime strange (with picture). Not sure to understand why. When you have a good texture, it is a good thing to save it on your own material folder.
When you change a texture (picture), all the objects with this texture can change. It can be a good thing to change many objects ungrouped at the same time.
If you erase the old picture with a new picture, all the object who use this picture change his material. If it is not the goal don't forget to click on a empty square (grey) before to load a new picture and create another material.
Maybe the material and the object are linked or something like that. That is the difference with trueSpace. I think it is because Bryce save all the material with the scene on one file.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 21 Nov 2012, 20:53

After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 21 Nov 2012, 21:41

spacekdet wrote:After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.

The procedural texturing system was the reason i stopped using Bryce a few years ago.....
Its one of those Metacreations relicts.. I could never get my head around although other then the material editor i liked Bryce...
Peter

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 22 Nov 2012, 08:14

RAYMAN wrote:
spacekdet wrote:After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.
The procedural texturing system was the reason i stopped using Bryce a few years ago.....
Its one of those Metacreations relicts.. I could never get my head around although other then the material editor i liked Bryce...
Peter

It is true that the options for Bryce procedural textures are confusing. I mainly use mappings images. However, the editor has interesting features.

I tried different rendering engine, which demo version of Thea. I regret that programmers integrate their barbaric terms in interfaces. When will they be in the range of users? Workspace version of trueSpace is no exception to the rule, with its ridiculous names to define simple things. As if the names displayed on the interface, were lines of code!
I do not know if some people think it is more professional. I find it ridiculous. I repeat. This is one reason that I have never used this workspace. Not once!

There are simple and understandable names. I think programmers should be trained in this way, instead of showing their prowess in complex processes.They should be concerned about the comfort of the user rather than trying to impress them. The editor of materials on the modelside (trueSpace) is a model of simplicity. Due to its age, it is incomplete, but it is an example of ergonomics.

Gentlemen programmers look Einstein: a mammoth task for a simple result that sciense becomes beautiful. That's the talent, not the display of knowledge that everyone does not care.

More the world is complex and more I am older, I see things simply. It makes me more efficient.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Nov 2012, 15:08

spacekdet wrote:After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.

TS is king of the interface!

RAYMAN wrote:The procedural texturing system was the reason i stopped using Bryce a few years ago ... other then the material editor i liked Bryce

That's where I am. Bryce has lots of things I like but texturing interface is terrible. For me though it is Bryce for landscapes or nothing. How is Vue's texturing system? Not that I'll ever be able to buy Vue.

Bryce's texturing system is so bad I'm considering texturing the building in Daz (texturing is nice but isn't TS) and sending it to Bryce with Daz-Bryce bridge. I seem to have some paranoia about things called "bridge" though

Marcel, I used to be programmer and you are right. Programmers think the user is a nerd too. It is easy to make a nerd friendly interface so laziness is a factor too. I like a simple interface where technical details are hidden by default and usually not needed but where you can dig deeper if you want to. Bryce has plenty of "deeper", lots of ability, but the interface ... ugh.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 22 Nov 2012, 15:11

marcel wrote:
RAYMAN wrote:
spacekdet wrote:After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.
The procedural texturing system was the reason i stopped using Bryce a few years ago.....
Its one of those Metacreations relicts.. I could never get my head around although other then the material editor i liked Bryce...
Peter
It is true that the options for Bryce procedural textures are confusing. I mainly use mappings images. However, the editor has interesting features.

I tried different rendering engine, which demo version of Thea. I regret that programmers integrate their barbaric terms in interfaces. When will they be in the range of users? Workspace version of trueSpace is no exception to the rule, with its ridiculous names to define simple things. As if the names displayed on the interface, were lines of code!
I do not know if some people think it is more professional. I find it ridiculous. I repeat. This is one reason that I have never used this workspace. Not once!

There are simple and understandable names. I think programmers should be trained in this way, instead of showing their prowess in complex processes.They should be concerned about the comfort of the user rather than trying to impress them. The editor of materials on the modelside (trueSpace) is a model of simplicity. Due to its age, it is incomplete, but it is an example of ergonomics.

Gentlemen programmers look Einstein: a mammoth task for a simple result that sciense becomes beautiful. That's the talent, not the display of knowledge that everyone does not care.

More the world is complex and more I am older, I see things simply. It makes me more efficient.

thats exactly how and why I chose my tools....even If they cost some money... its me behind that computer banging my head
against the monitor figuring out what I knew about it and how it worked 2 days ago.....
I rather spend the time making some money with the tool...and enjoying it...

If I were Daz the first thing I did was rewritten the interface of Bryces procedurals...... its unnecessary gimmicky...its pretty powerfull though..
Peter

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 22 Nov 2012, 15:19

Finis wrote:
spacekdet wrote:After seeing that, I will never complain about trueSpace Material Editor again.
TS is king of the interface!

RAYMAN wrote:The procedural texturing system was the reason i stopped using Bryce a few years ago ... other then the material editor i liked Bryce
Not that I'll ever be able to buy Vue.

thats exactly the point I´m fighting in your low selfestime.... You are such a talented person.. but cant get into business with 3d because of this and because of that...
I said a long time ago that you can make it and get some local people to let you do 3d for them with what you already own..
second step is downloading the demos and starting experimenting....third is buying the tools that you enjoy ....
You are a very talented young person dont lose precious time.....you can make it !

There isnt much gardenwork in winter !

Peter

Ps : Vue´s texturing system is the most powerfull but yet easiest to use and it has 3 floors ... simple .... advanced and if you need it it goes all the way
down to node based...

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 25 Nov 2012, 22:37

It isn't self esteem Rayman. I know I can make good images and can learn to do the realistic architectural/product images. This is no longer the land of opportunity. I hope to get work in this field but the national bad economy, local bad economy, and my own poverty are additional barriers to deal with. I'll proceed with attempts to get my online magazine business started, develop the skill and means to try CG for work, and try for more business in lawn care.

Here are tests for a Bryce scene with the dining hall. The rebuilt curtain has fewer polys and uses Marcel's method to simulate translucence. There are two curtains near each other. One only has transparency and shadows and the other has the color, no shadows, and ambiance (= TS luminance). It all needs adjustment but this proof of concept shows that light can come through the curtain system while it does not show the scene beyond with transparency.

The build is floating above the ground now. It will be on a hill with the ocean view. Ocean needs work. There will be trees.

It is difficult to move items, camera, or views due to slowness with all those building polys. Bryce's nightmare texturing system may mean doing the environment in Bryce and the rest in Daz with its nice texturing. These programs are ok for my hobby but time to try others for hobby or hopefully work. (Blender, Messiah, Thea demo).

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Nov 2012, 03:00

The building has textures but they need work. To avoid having to save each image texture as a material vs. crashes I gave everything Bryce procedural materials except the curtains where I saved it as a material.

I think I need to change the way the textures map to the objects to get the details. The large open spaces need something to fill the space.

I saw in a tutorial that Bryce has a "true ambiance" render option and tried it. It bounces light around like GI. I'm not sure if that does color bleeding. Bryce estimated 17 hours render time so that is out.

This render has the sun light with shadows and the sky as an image based light with no shadows.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Nov 2012, 19:31

The interior view doesn't show off my building enough so I opted for an exterior view. The translucent curtain shadows aren't needed from this view so I'll make them normal with some ambiance. The land would be hard to adjust precisely in Bryce and I don't want to fit it to the building in Hexagon so I'll hide it with vegetation or make more steps.

Adjust materials and use a variety of plants next.

The challenge calls for an animation. Don't know what I can do there due to render time but maybe a slide show of sun movement and changing lighting.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 27 Nov 2012, 21:41

Looks promising!! I had better step up and give you some competition! =) You're doing great with all the dev and look!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Nov 2012, 06:20

That Vue texturing system looks good Rayman.

Thanks, Draise.

Here is the latest. About 10 minutes render. Slowness was very frustrating. It makes it difficult to do anything. I should have saved a scene with only the building and used a simple block to mark its location.

The instancing lab has its quirks. I couldn't make two sets of instances for trees so I put one all over the land and deleted the trees in the water. But when I changed the brush (collection of things to copy) to grasses I made in Plant Studio I could make a new instance group. The foreground land texture is blurred but in looks good in the distance. I wanted to put grass on it but 300 grass plants hardly covered it. Thousands caused odd effects like purple lines over the ground and no land or grass in the render. Need to cover the near ground with something.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Nov 2012, 19:48

13.7 million polygons of grass. I'll change its texture to be closer to the colors of the terrain, try to thin it out some, and try to get sparse grass on the field just beyond the grass. The instance lab doesn't give much to work with for putting instances on the terrain relative to other objects so I moved some instance trees to mark the corners of the building. The triangle under the instance map doesn't do anything. On most Bryce screens that gives display options so maybe a future version will be easier to use. 10.5 minutes render without AA.

There are artifacts along the steps. I think the bump map does that so I'll remove it. The foundation will get a block or rock texture. I found that there are many trees occupying the same place. When I find out how to show the items as boxes all the time I'll delete the extras. The texture editor had a noise feature that I think could add speckles to the too smooth terrain but it was too complicated to learn for now.

A quality setting for the true ambiance feature was at 64. Changing to 4 made the estimated render time just over an hour with no grass. Might try one.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Nov 2012, 20:24

This may be it. The slowness in handling all these polys and instances is no fun. With the building removed and stored in a file to merge later (I find no way to temporarily turn it off like TS's visibility) it takes about 20 seconds for simple things to happen ... like highlighting the object selected. Moving the scene or an object is a feedback free activity due to delay before result, moving in imprecise jumps, etc. I had to position some items with the numerical screens.

Things that could be fixed: Cover more blurry ground with stones. Move tree on right to put shadow on building.

For all the slowness in other parts the rendering is fast. This rendered in 14 minutes and 2/3 of that was AA.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Dec 2012, 04:48

Brighter lighting and tree shadow on right. Environment light from the sky with no shadows and sun with shadows. This will be my challenge entry if ok since it isn't an animation.

I did one with the true ambiance render settings. It took 45 minutes and bounced the light well but was still grainy. Probably take hours for a quality one.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 01 Dec 2012, 19:42

By Zeus, this is looking good.
I feel like I should be drinking red wine and eating olives.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 01 Dec 2012, 22:16

Just got back from the land of democracy doing just that spacekdet.

Bravo Finis. Lookin' real good.

Saul · Post by **Saul** » 01 Dec 2012, 23:19

Finis wrote: This will be my challenge entry if ok since it isn't an animation.

It's welcome for entry and looking real good, you got until 9th Dec so plenty more could be done:

Finis wrote:The idea is a public outdoor eating area in ancient Greece or maybe Rome. People might gather for a festival, holiday, or celebration which might be catered or just go there informally. They would take mats or cushions to sit on and eat from bowls.

How about some landscaping and painted decoration?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Dec 2012, 00:52

Thanks Spacekdet, Dragneye, and Saul.

Unfortunately the real world demands attention now. That plus the large amount of time it takes to do anything to this means it is done.

Saul, those pictures make me want to do another ancient scene. Maybe someday.

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