United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Oct 2013, 16:30

Best to get a new computer soon. Before XP security updates expire. Don't think my old one can run W8. I looked at I5 based computers. No way I can ever afford a new I5 based computer even with minimal stuff. But, the AMD based ones are much cheaper. Are AMD cpu based systems any good? Anyone have experience with them?

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 19 Oct 2013, 18:28

I had a few, but bought cheap motherboards which overheated - so they didn't last.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 19 Oct 2013, 22:13

Good point about the motherboard. The chips by themselves are quite good. The ones I used for my kids PC's run fine. I don't know the architecture well enough to comfortably overclock them so I don't... perhaps explains why never a heat problem.

ASUS motherboards for AMD have a good rep... check the reviews for the combination of mobo and chip before you buy. Some OCZ memory sticks are sux0rs in asus mobos for example so you need to do a bit of research to be comfortable.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 20 Oct 2013, 09:39

I build pcs and have watched hundreds of vids on amd and intel .the amd chips are more for gaming but slower than a intel,
there for cheaper .the intel chip i5 i7 are for 3d work and cad good ,more cores and run cooler the hasswel chip run hoter .
the intel chips i 3 i5 i7 are getting cheaper they are old now ,so if you buy the pats for a pc bit by bit you will have a power pc
better than any shop pc .with the chance to upgrade it also .

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 20 Oct 2013, 15:46

Thanks everyone.

My current PC, Pentium D dual core 3.6 GHz, 2G ram (maximum it can use), meets W8 specs but W8 requires 2G ram. So I think it would not be able to do much other than run the OS.

Looks like you all think AMD's are ok and Intel is better. I used the "configurator" at IBuyPower.com and the AMD systems weren't really that much cheaper than Intel. Both ran around $600 for a basic I5 or A8 system. That's over budget if a new comp is possible at all. Then there is W8.1 on CD ($89 TigerDirect). I want the OS on CD, full install. Not the factory pre-installed. Just don't trust that in case of disaster.

Dual core systems newer than mine are cheaper but no point in getting a new comp without 4 cores.

What knowledge I had is long outdated so building one from parts has a limited probability of success for me. However, I'll price the parts from "configurators" since I'll know they are compatible.

What other places like IBuyPower are there that have "configurators"?

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 21 Oct 2013, 05:37

When I was an IT manager I read tomshardware reviews cuz they were among the most complete around... the have posted some configurations for budget purchasers to build their own.... check it out here... http://www.tomshardware.com/system-conf ... on-51.html

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Oct 2013, 15:48

Thanks! Potentially affordable systems there.

froo · Post by **froo** » 22 Oct 2013, 21:47

Hey Finis!

Check out: microcenter.com

From what I've seen, they are actually cheaper than newegg and tigerdirect.

I built my latest system from components purchased at microcenter.

Froo

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Oct 2013, 00:23

Thanks everyone. So, if I can afford one, I'll build my own (Pugman1) using Toms Hardware as a guide (V3rd3) and found some bargains at Microcenter (Froo).

How is this configuration? Any incompatibilities etc.? Suggestions for affordable CPU cooling?

One problem: Microcenter won't ship this CPU. In store pick up only. The nearest one is either in Denver, CO or Dallas, TX. Hundreds of miles.

PC Config 1

Micro Center

CPU $129.99
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4147 ... _Processor

MOBO $64.99
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4036 ... otherboard

MOBO + CPU bundle price: $154.98

RAM $64.99
http://www.microcenter.com/product/3973 ... Modules%29

DISK $104.99
http://www.microcenter.com/product/3566 ... Bare_Drive

Amazon

CASE $53.65
http://www.amazon.com/Antec-Three-Hundr ... e%2C+Black

POWER SUPPLY $39.99
http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Builder-W ... PS+80+PLUS

New Egg

CPU COOLER
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835181029 Corsair $64.99
or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835106218 Thermaltake $69.99

Total
$483.59 to $488.59

trueBlue · Post by **trueBlue** » 23 Oct 2013, 00:45

does not look like your saving much...
http://us.gateway.com/gw/en/US/content/models/dx-series"

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 25 Oct 2013, 18:45

Added CPU coolers to config 1 above. Is either of them ok quality?

Will shop for prices on all parts but the cpu + mobo bundle saves a good bit. Still, they won't ship that cpu from Microcenter. Maybe another place will have a bundle or close enough prices. Probably need to remember my very low budget too an go for less awesome and more bargain.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 26 Oct 2013, 00:24

Thermaltake are the only cpu coolers I buy... I use the copper ones... http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/products- ... C_00001287 I get them at Tigerdirect for a pretty decent price. The copper heatsink is for intel boxes but the contac series for amd are really good as well.

Dem r sexy!!!

Don't forget to get really good thermal paste... You can get thermaltake TG3 at Tiger for less than 20 bucks... if the store you are at doesn't have it the Coolermaster pastes are pretty good as well.

Good thermal paste can improve the heat transfer by a lot and your multicore processors can run 3-5 degrees cooler as a result.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Oct 2013, 01:52

Thanks V3rd3.

I could probably heat my house with that CPU! Do I need a liquid cooler? I'm not real comfortable with water plus electricity. I guess some liquid coolers have nonconducting juice but surely not on the cheap end.

I'll probably get my dreams of awesomeness in check and come up with a cheaper config too.

Here's a funny thought. I notice a difference in attitude between rich, regular, and poor people. If a rich guy gets money he thinks, "I will invest this money and create more wealth". A regular guy thinks, "I will save this money and accumulate wealth". A poor guy gets money and he thinks, "Pizza!". ... or in my case, "4.1 GHz CPU!"

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 26 Oct 2013, 03:24

No... water cooling is for Sheldon and Leonard types that calibrate evaporation factors when they have their wheaties.... a lot of work most of us don't have time for.

You computer case needs to be as large as you can manage with space for a lot of 200mm fans. I have a thermaltake level 10 GT case with 5 200mm fans.

The space on the inside of the case has to house all your components and their cables. Wait until after you have installed everything before you start using your cable ties. Tie off cable near the walls of the case where you can to maximize air flow around your cpu heat sink.

The fans in my case draw air from the front and one side and move it through the middle to the vent fans at the top of the case and the top rear. If the case you buy does not have an air flow plan using a scheme like this works quite well. Theoretically the coolest air in the room is at the floor. My case houses the power supply at the bottom of the case to aid in the thermal flow.

There are a few free/open source tools to monitor your cpu so have a look at those as well. I use CoreTemp which will report on both intel and amd chips. Some amd chips have a single temperature sensor so the tools will report the reading from there which should be sufficient.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Oct 2013, 04:00

Thanks again V3rd3. Evaporation? I mean a liquid cooler like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835106218

Didn't think about air flow in the case. The case in config 1 has lots of places for fans so there should be options there.

(Sheldon is from east Texas like me!)

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 26 Oct 2013, 15:41

I know I've posted this before on this forum some place... getting a deja vu here, if you're looking for a really cheap yet good CPU cooler get the Cooler Master Hyper EVO 212. It will cool anything from i3s to OCd i7s as well as AMD CPUs. Naturally, you won't be able to OC very far but it works wonders for its price and is loved among enthusiast builders around the world.
It ships with cooling paste but I got some Arctic Cooling MX-4 for mine.
Naturally once you get it up and running, use SpeedFan or a similar program to monitor temps in your PC.

That CPU cooler you posted is only half liquid cooler and still needs fans. Those types of liquid coolers work well though are known to often ship as faulty and you'll need to RMA, or they will break within a few months. You might get lucky and get one that lasts but if you're looking for a budget solution, the cooler I mentioned above will give you the same performance for a lesser price.

Now I don't know whether you're looking into building a beast right away or if you're starting out small but choosing the right case can save you a lot of money, for instance while sacrificing some air-flow, going for a good mid-tower instead of a cheap full tower will save you at least 50% to 60% when buying a case.

As for the AMD / Intel question... hmm, I'm not an expert on AMD but if I were you I'd get an i7 or one of the high performance i5s (one with a K behind the number so you can OC it). Best not to cheap out on what will be the heart of your new rig.

Other than that Corsair has some decent 8 GB ram sticks for an OK price. Though quite frankly two 4 GB RAM sticks will do. I'm running 8 GBs now and I don't feel like I need much more RAM than that.

Another great way to save some money here and there is salvaging CD/DVD drives from old PCs. In this age of external hard drives and cloud storage, I'm guessing you won't be using it all that much anyway.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 26 Oct 2013, 16:49

I have not looked at liquid cooling for a long time. You used to have a tank outside pc that required monitoring to maintain the fluid levels.

I must admit I have never seen a maintenance free liquid system so this is definitely outside of my experience.

Coolermaster are a good manufacturer as well. I have 2 older PC's using Coolermaster cases. Very nice designs.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 26 Oct 2013, 17:09

@v3rd3

The type of liquid cooler Finis posted above is pretty much maintenance free. Those coolers have a built in pump and are completely closed off. It leads the heat to a radiator which you mount to either the top or rear of your case. Fans lead air away from the radiator.
They allow for a decent amount of experimenting around with the airflow. You can go for either a single fan or a dual, push-pull configuration.

I had a Corsair Hydro H70 core: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835181019 Was faulty though and had to get rid of it. The pump made an awful noise, a common issue with these coolers. Air can get into the system during production (which isn't supposed to happen) and they ship faulty.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Oct 2013, 18:34

Thanks everyone.

MikomDude wrote:That CPU cooler you posted is only half liquid cooler and still needs fans.

It has two fans. The case I want, so far, has two fans and places for more.

V3rd3, I've seen some bargains for decent Cooler Master stuff. Thanks for letting me know it is a good brand.

MikomDude wrote:get an i7 or one of the high performance i5

Would if I could but way too expensive for me. Better? I hope so given the price difference.

While I think I can afford a decent machine with budget parts (like above) I have little money. I'll go for a fast cpu but that is a much of a beast as it will be. I may have to just go for the minimum to run W8 (cheap cpu + cheap mobo, put in old case with old stuff) (trueBlue, true, not saving).

That Hyper EVO 212 looks good. That's not water cooling right? I'm concerned about the fast cpu getting hot but I'd rather have regular cooling if that will be enough. No overclocking planned (4.1 GHz, why OC?). It is hot where I live and it will be 80F (26.7C) or more at least half the year in the house (I like it warm).

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 26 Oct 2013, 18:59

Finis wrote:That Hyper EVO 212 looks good. That's not water cooling right?

It is a regular heat sink. Copper and aluminum.

I have a friend (total PC building nut) who lives in California, he has at some point had the Hyper Evo 212 as well. It gets really hot there but he never mentioned it overheating his CPU with the Evo. With heat sinks like this ambient temperatures will have more of an effect on the temps of your computer. But the Hyper Evo can cool and over-clocked i7 to a steady 40C no problem so with whatever CPU you're going for, I'm guessing it will do just fine. As long as the ambient temperatures don't go above 40C in your house, haha

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Oct 2013, 01:38

MikomDude wrote:ambient temperatures don't go above 40C in your house

104F. Well, not while the computer is on!

If I'm away long then the house fan is off. No problem, computer is off then too.

I might get a water cooler to be sure but water+electricity=scary and saving a few bucks is good too. Say the water pump fails. Then the water cooler is useless but a radiator type dissipates some heat even if its fan fails.

What happens to modern CPUs when they overheat? Is there an emergency self-shutdown before damage? Can the temp monitoring software give an alert?

If I get Microcenter's cpu+mobo bundle I save $40 but the cpu is in-store only. A friend lives in Kansas and there is a store in Kansas City. Maybe he can get them there and send to me. Shipping might counter the savings though.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 27 Oct 2013, 03:40

Finis wrote:What happens to modern CPUs when they overheat? Is there an emergency self-shutdown before damage? Can the temp monitoring software give an alert?

Usually if your CPU overheats Windows will give you a bluescreen. That will be a hint to that your CPU is overheating.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 27 Oct 2013, 04:33

just as a sidenote ! I rather invest more money into memory efficient software then spend tons of money into
highend and overclocked hardware.....!

A good modern warehouse computer does pretty well for most appplications.....!
To have the best hardware costs a large premium....
A warehouse Dell computer would cost you around 600 $ but you can get even cheaper fully assembled products with
waranty....!
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Oct 2013, 15:23

Tons of money? The configuration I have so far costs $483 to $488. Add $89 for W8 on CD and some shipping and some insane tax and it is a much faster system than similar priced, $600, boxed machines. The cpu for this configuration is not overclocked and I don't intend to. Yes, the best hardware cost a premium. That's why there is not any in this configuration.

Right about the warranty, definite benefit of a warehouse computer, and cheaper ones. I noted earlier that I'll probably devise a cheaper config. or just do the bare minimum to keep me online (W8 compatibility). But, I'll check how mighty a PC I can afford too.

Yeah, good software! That's a project for next season or more income.

Thanks Rayman and TrueBlue for keeping me sane. Cheaper systems would certainly be fine for my use and that I probably can afford the nice config doesn't mean I don't have better things to do with that money.

froo · Post by **froo** » 27 Oct 2013, 15:39

Microcenter won't ship the CPU? What a bunch of cheapos!
If you want, I could pick it up and ship it to you Finis. The store is about 5 miles from my house (Greenwood Village woohoo!).

Another option, if you haven't already - sign up for the Newegg emails for daily sales. Seems like once a week they have a bundle offer, plus (usually) free shipping.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 27 Oct 2013, 16:39

good advice would be a good Cuda compatibility of the graphics card.... most realtime renderers are based on it and as far as I know also those for Blender..
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Nov 2013, 03:19

Thanks Froo. I'll see if my friend in Kansas can get the Microcenter stuff there. If not then I'll take you up on that offer ... if I don't get the cpu and mobo from someone who will ship them. Scaling back for a little cheaper configuration. Then shop for best prices.

Rayman, looks like Blender cycles is Nvidia only for now. There is trouble with opencl for the AMD products and others. Too bad since the AMD cpu has most of a gpu built in. Cycles and some others won't be able to use it. I can't afford a gpu card for a long time but now I know to get Nvidia with cuda support.

froo · Post by **froo** » 04 Nov 2013, 17:10

Sounds good Finis. Let me know either way.

Froo

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Nov 2013, 06:12

Froo, my friend in Kansas says he lives just a few miles from the store there so I'll have him get the cpu+mobo bundle if I get it from Microcenter. Especially since Microcenter doesn't let other-than-buyer pick the stuff up so he has to buy it, me pay him back ...

An I5 3570 may be affordable after all. Benchmarks show it about 60% faster than the A10 I planned on. It costs more but I can use the heat sink + fan that comes with it and get a smaller HD to offset the cost.

I decided against the water cooler. If the provided regular cooler isn't cool enough I'll get the Hyper EVO 212.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 27 Nov 2013, 08:02

Finis wrote:I decided against the water cooler. If the provided regular cooler isn't cool enough I'll get the Hyper EVO 212.

If you're going for the i5 then I highly recommend you get a different cooler right away, like the Hyper EVO for example. The stock Intel cooler isn't very good unfortunately... It might work for an i3 but for my i7 it totally failed to perform.
Please don't make the same mistake I did. I had to live with that horrid thing for a week until my liquid-cooler arrived.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 27 Nov 2013, 14:45

This is what I have with absolutely no heat issues, no dirt build-up, no speed issues with 3D software etc.
I love this computer. You can't tell that it is even on it is so quite.

Processor: Intel Core i5-2300 processor (6MB Cache, 2.8GHz)
4 GB DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz (4 DIMMs)
Heat Sink NO FAN. no liquid cooling needed. Completely quite!

There is no problems running all my different 3d programs or games.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Nov 2013, 16:50

Thanks! With Mikom's warning I'll go ahead and get the evo 212. They are fairly cheap and I'd still save a little vs. the cost of the water cooler. With Steinie's experience with minimal cooling I feel confident that the water cooler is not necessary. That was for the hot A10 anyway.

It is soooo cold where Steinie is that fans aren't needed. His computer problems are keeping penguins off of his keyboard and frost off of the screen.

The photo of the I5's stock cooler looks much like the one on my current Pentium D which was running around 140F (60C) while rendering. The temp. monitoring program showed a flame icon so I guess that is too hot. Maybe I can scavenge the fan from the stock cooler and put it on the case.

I won't have a GPU card for some time, if ever, so no significant GPU rendering. The I5 does have a built-in graphics system so that should help. My old card is not that powerful and fits the AGP port which is obsolete now.

With 4 cores and 64bit chip this should be significantly faster than my old comp. So it doesn't have to be high end to be a big speed increase for me.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Dec 2013, 23:06

Planning ahead. If I get 8GB of ram in one module then later I can upgrade to 16GB by putting another 8GB module in the other memory slot, right? That way the upgrade cost is one 8GB module instead of two 8GB modules and wasting two 4GB modules.

Do both memory slots have to be filled or is it ok to just have memory in one?

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 04 Dec 2013, 02:25

It is ok to have the memory stick in just one slot. The trick to pairing memory is to make sure the 2 are the same brand and model. When you add a module to your memory pool you should check that the 2 SIMM's are working well together. A great utility for testing your memory is http://www.memtest.org/.

It is quite possible, even with the same brand and model that you can have diminished real memory that windows will not report as a problem. For example, a couple of builds ago I had windows reporting full memory when memtest found I was actually getting around 86% because of firmware conflicts. Swapped the added SIMM for another and I was running 97%. Big improvement.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Dec 2013, 00:29

Will do V3rd3. Just one stick for now.

New design. Getting over budget so I'll wait for after Christmas sales. Might go to a cheaper cpu+mobo combo if prices don't improve then. Went back to AMD cpu. Amazon's prices have gone up. I'll watch for alternatives and bargains when it is time to buy. I'll put the fan that comes with the cpu on the case.

Bundle savings at Microcenter
CPU: AMD FX 8320 Black Edition 3.5GHz AM3+, Scores a respectable 8,128 on these benchmarks.
MOBO: ASRock 970 Extreme4 Socket AM3+ 970 ATX AMD, Handles Nvidia and AMD gpu's.

Amazon
RAM: Crucial Ballistix Sport 8GB (1 X 8GB) DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz
HD: WD Blue 1 TB Desktop Hard Drive, Will get 500 GB if they cost much less. Not much difference now.
COOLING: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - CPU Cooler
CASE: Antec Three Hundred Two Gaming Case, Might get the 300 it's cheaper.
POWER: Thermaltake 240-Pin 600w TR-600

Tiger Direct
OS: Windows 8.x 64 bit

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 28 Jan 2014, 01:36

CPU and MOBO are on the way. My friend in Kansas got them at Microcenter after the price went down $50!

Edit: He got a military discount too!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Feb 2014, 16:40

Watching the ups and downs of Amazon's prices for the rest of the hardware and looking for alternatives and deals. Soon ... soon.

So windows 8.1 oem licenses are tied to the mobo right? That means I can install it on my new PC on the HD and later, when I can get one, on a SSD (with uninstall from HD if required) because it is the same mobo? Is that ok with an OEM license? Ultimately, I'd like to have the OS and some working space on a SSD and a HD for regular data storage with no OS on it.

The regular license isn't that much more but if I can save a few dollars then great.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Feb 2014, 02:37

Ordered the rest of the computer parts. Bargains and I got an electronic coupon and mostly free shipping.

So much savings that I'll get a graphics card/gpu. Has to have cuda. Otherwise what is a good but really cheap one? $40 or less.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Feb 2014, 00:06

What are the networking options for Win 8.1 vs. Win 8.1 Pro?

I want to connect old and new comps to transfer files and a render farm might be nice in the future.

Any advice for a cheap video/gpu card with cuda?

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 15 Feb 2014, 01:57

Finis wrote:What are the networking options for Win 8.1 vs. Win 8.1 Pro?

I want to connect old and new comps to transfer files and a render farm might be nice in the future.

Any advice for a cheap video/gpu card with cuda?

I have no problem with networking. All my connectivity is wired though. Never did like wireless.

I use a Motorola modem and a D-Link "Gamer Lounge" router with Cox Cable Internet service. Plugged everything and Windows 8.1 recognized everything instantly from my old network configurations.

So I didn't have to set up anything.

I have the old reliable older computer seen below as the master in the network system (if there is such a thing anymore). Match that up with a cheap portable drive, flash drives and you have all the humming and drumming you want.

Very stable system and with Windows 8.1 I can encrypt stuff so even the NSA can't find it (shhh....) I use the 64 bit (Intel 920 i7 processor)Win 8.1 computer to run graphics software that has 8gb memory and it's faster than quarter in the pocket of a 9 year old boy at an arcade.

Hey! No laughing at my network names, it too many years of development and thousands in research costs. (cough)

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Feb 2014, 02:54

Thanks James but are you running Win 8.1 Pro or regular?

Network names. In college they got spiffy computers for each computer science professor. The profs named them after Native American pueblos like Acoma, Pojoaque (po-wah-kee), and Tesuque (teh-su-kee). So one rebel named his Tecate.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 15 Feb 2014, 04:47

Finis wrote:Thanks James but are you running Win 8.1 Pro or regular?

Network names. In college they got spiffy computers for each computer science professor. The profs named them after Native American pueblos like Acoma, Pojoaque (po-wah-kee), and Tesuque (teh-su-kee). So one rebel named his Tecate.

Running Win 8.1 Pro

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 17 Feb 2014, 17:33

Thanks James. Yeah, desktop! I hear that Win 8 is always getting on the web. Disconnecting or blocking that will be a project. Only things I explicitly authorize, like os and software updates, or start, like Firefox, may get on the web.

I like the Antec three-hundred-two case. It is bigger than I thought. Metal. Good construction. Easy access to both sides and front. It has two tremendous fans installed. Plenty of drive and gadget bays. There are several places for fans and three intake ones have air filters. However, the two on the side panels have no filters so that counters the effect of the filtered ones.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 20 Feb 2014, 16:24

Good thing the case is big. I got the hyper evo 212 cpu cooler yesterday. It is enormous. The cooler that came with the cpu, while reported to be not awesome, looked pretty good.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 20 Feb 2014, 17:36

There's so much more room for activities!

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 21 Feb 2014, 03:47

It's a great cpu cooler for the price (EVO) ... The PC I built for my wife's office uses one ... not used for CG but does a fine job.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Feb 2014, 04:24

Thanks V3rd3. Everyone says it is good.

Spacekdet: All that room in the case. Maybe a pool? A basketball court?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Feb 2014, 16:32

Maybe I need an upgrade. Yeah, 4 Zeon processors, 40 cores, and 512 GB of memory. I could render some stuff with that. http://www.supermicro.com/products/moth ... .cfm?SAS=Y

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Mar 2014, 21:00

My old cd/dvd drives have the ribbon cables and the new mobo doesn't use that so I have a new, economical, CD/DVD burner on the way.

So far so good. No lightning, fire, or melting. It boots to the point of asking for the boot device and recognizes the cpu and memory.

Air flow. Probably not much difference but whether to put the cpu cooler blowing horizontally into the fan on the back or up into the fan on top? Now it is blowing to the back. The case has two exhaust fans. One blows out of the back behind (left in pic) the cpu cooler. One blows out of the top above the cpu fan. So input air is vacuumed in through the front and through vents on each side panel.

Gpu card has a fan and the power supply pulls air in through a vent on the bottom and blows it out the back.

The cpu cooler is big. I think it is not locked in properly to a thing that keeps it from rotating under its bracket. I'll take it off and reinstall. I am also concerned about tightening it too much. How much is enough?

Can't install Windows until I get the cd/dvd drive.

Edit: I think I'll have the cpu cooler blow up into the top exhaust fan. That would create more vertical air flow which would help the Gpu card and the mounting screws will be more accessible.

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 04 Mar 2014, 08:25

I have a similar cooler and fan setup and have no over heating problems, infact I rarely hear the cooler fan cranking up on heavy renders, get some sort of CPU monitoring software to check the temp across the cores is similar, your ok with a few degrees either way
Issue I have is my crappy Quadro 600 runs very hot and found out these entry level cards need to forced to use all of their fan speed, something like Asus GPU Tweak can do this

If you plan to run multiple GPU's 600watts may not be enough

All those fans will drag in a lot of dust and pet hairs, we have a constant battle with the latter.. get a bald dog lol Our tower is about the same size and has to live on the floor, the dog.. such a loyal thing sleeps under the desk while I'm working

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Mar 2014, 17:46

I've got all the dust in world here Nigec. Desert. The front and power supply air intakes have filters but the two side panel intakes don't. Makes the others of little effect. I'll see about filters for them. Still won't stop the fine particles. There are so many openings for air it seems more like an open frame to hold stuff.

I got an msi gt 610 gpu card. I notice that it has the heat sink and fan on the bottom. Seems like they should have the hot stuff and fan on top. Can't afford multi-gpu's. I'd get a bigger one rather than multi if I could.

Some monitoring software came with the mobo. I'll watch the temps. Especially at first.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Mar 2014, 07:00

Win 8.1 installed plus some monitoring software that came with the mobo. So far I'm not hating W8 with the desktop but I've only got about 30 minutes on it. It let me create a local user account no trouble, no MS account needed, which I had read took some extra effort. The cpu ran at 87F to 89F and the lowest target temp available on the fan control program is 113F so cooling is working great. A little chilly in the house though. I'll see how it goes this Summer. Install some more stuff and get it on the web.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Mar 2014, 22:35

Now posting from the new computer. I borrowed some networking equipment from a friend and I'm transferring everything to keep from the other computer.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 08 Mar 2014, 00:26

Is it like buying a new pair of tennis shoes and all of a sudden you feel like you can run faster and jump higher?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Mar 2014, 03:16

Problem. Four times now the new machine has powered off with no warning. It doesn't shutdown. Just power gone instantly as if unplugged. It won't come back on until I turn off the switch on the power supply for a minute. I'll try using the power supply from the old one to check if it is that.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 15 Mar 2014, 13:21

Heat issues? That was always my the problem with my older computer. Check your CMOS settings. (I think)
Either that or something funky with your power supply.
Last but not least a virus protector is trying to save your computer.

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 15 Mar 2014, 14:39

Check the Ram and any other plugin device is seated right

One issue I had with mine was I took the chip out and it reset the BIOS to use IDE drives so the SSD wouldn't boot
an air bubble on the chip could cause it

If you can't get it working try with just one ram stick and the on board graphics (if it has it) then if that works gradually add the other parts

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Mar 2014, 16:43

The air from the power supply is cool which might be odd itself. I'd expect it to be warm.

When it shuts off there is no power. Lights are off nothing is running. Unplugging it for a minute works like flipping the power supply switch: will come back on after that.

I'll put the old computer's power supply in first. If that fixes it then the new power supply is it (Amazon return policy and good warranty). Else I'll check the other things you all mentioned (thanks).

There's only one 8gb ram stick. There is no on board graphics. Love the mobo but that is strange. Will re-seat everything if the old PS doesn't fix it.

Checking bios/early boot stuff for info or power monitoring.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 15 Mar 2014, 17:32

Make sure the RAM stick is in the right slot as well as properly locked in. Although the problem does sound like your PC isn't getting enough power from the PSU.

If the problem persists, run a MemTest just to be sure it isn't the RAM.

This is odd though since most hardware-related issues should give you a bluescreen.

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 15 Mar 2014, 18:25

I have the same/similar cooler on a Asus board and its quite tricky to fit without getting the heatsink compound all over the place, if the CPU gets hot it would just shut down with no warning
When I bought my i7 it came with the wrong chip(wrongly listed on Amazon) but I got a replacement and fitted it myself, it wouldn't boot so the cooler was on and off a few times lol
turned out to be a BIOS problem so all was well but I ended up with an air bubble and had to take it to bits again.. I feel your pain! I was convinced I'd knackered it when it wouldn't boot up, it was only two weeks old
Fingers crossed it'll be something simple

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Mar 2014, 22:31

Been working so haven't put the old PSU in. It might not be compatible with the new system but I think its 430w is enough.

I don't think it is heat. At least if the ASRock extreme tuning utility (came with mobo) is correct. (No "extreme tuning" done I just use its monitor and fan control.) It shows the cpu idling around 95F to 105F. During a render with Bryce and all cores/threads pegged 100% it ran around 165F for about 25 minutes with no trouble. A hardware monitor available before full boot, on the setup menu where the bios stuff is too, agrees with the ASR-ETU and shows reasonable voltages. I tried a free temp monitor (name?) that would show temps for each core. The temps were obviously wrong, way too cool, and the temps were the same for each core, unlikely, so I don't think that was reliable.

The mobo has a cpu overheat protection feature and I'll bet it just powers off like this but I doubt there is a heat problem. The power supply is not hot since its exhaust air is cool.

Memory stick is in the slot recommended by mobo docs for single sticks. Maybe not seated well. I'll check the seating of the power connections to mobo too but I don't see why that would work again after flipping the PSU switch.

Well, experimenting is needed not theorizing. Get more data. First I'll check seating of everything. Then try to use the old power supply.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 16 Mar 2014, 05:31

This could be power fluctuation from your grid as well. Do you have an uninterruptible power supply? A cheap ups can clean the power going to your box by absorbing peaks and valleys enough to maintain a steady voltage. You can probably pick up a 15-20 minute battery for $60 bucks or so.... apc is a good brand that I use for some of my machines.

If you want to spend a couple of extra bucks to get decent value buy a unit that you can replace the batteries yourself. Saves you the long term cost of throwing out the whole unit when the batteries go (and they will).

With your new power supply you might look at the quality or integrity of the connectors on the rails going to your mobo. If the contacts are loose fan vibrations or air flow from a strong fan can jar bad connectors loose.

Keep us posted ... hope all goes well

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 16 Mar 2014, 08:14

my i7 is around 89f idle and 141.8 with Presto CPU it never goes higher than 150f with any render, but I'm in the uk and room temp is around 71f at the moment, however the computer is in a confined space.
Scary though my GPU hits 200f while GPU rendering, needless to say I rarely use it lol

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 16 Mar 2014, 15:35

nigec wrote: Scary though my GPU hits 200f while GPU rendering, needless to say I rarely use it lol

Just a few more degrees and you could make some tea on that thing.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Mar 2014, 19:27

It didn't power off for a couple of days so I thought it might be input fluctuations like V3rd3 said. Did it twice today so I put the old power supply in. I'll try a few days with that. If no trouble I'll try the new one again since it could have been poorly connected to the mobo. Should have reseated that before trying the old one.

Thanks for the heat info Nigec. Looks like the temps are ok.

V3rd3 what are rails? I looked in the vents on the power supply (opening it voids the warranty) and saw nothing that looks like rails. Its got 'em. The descriptions of it note that. I couldn't see much though. I did notice that a clear sheet of plastic blocks half of the fan. That seems to be its purpose but it also seems odd. That half of the PS has few large, likely hot, components. Its cool output air indicates no heat problem there though.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Mar 2014, 17:00

It has not powered off with the old power supply. Putting the new one back in just to be sure it wasn't things not seated well. If it happens again then I'll use the return policy for a replacement.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 23 Mar 2014, 23:09

Sorry rails refers to the wire from the power supply to the component through the connector. Too many techies in my life. Rails is the technical term for the specific wire connecting a specific component delivering a specific voltage. I believe the technical explanation is that the wire delivers a measured or regulated voltage to the part.

Sorry if the explanation sucks I am in the middle of blitz packing for my move to the new place. I will be off for a couple of weeks and try again then.

The plastic sheet is likely a flow regulator... a lot of engineering in cooling systems is there to create a desired turbulence. Apparently smooth airflow does not get cool air into all the nooks and crannies of hot parts so the disruption is by design.

There was an article I remember reading some time ago that talked about deliberately causing disrupted air flow to cool harley davidson engines for one their high end bikes.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 24 Mar 2014, 00:09

I hope your new home is a good place to live and that the move goes well.

If any of the connectors are touchy then it still has to go back.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 24 Mar 2014, 17:42

Thanks. Still a ton to do but I hope we get there.

Absolutely agree with the return if dodgy... failure on the voltage regulation would mean a very short life for your components.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Mar 2014, 00:53

Yep, there it went. Powered off. I put the packing and such from all the computer stuff in one box. I hope they aren't picky about having the exact twist ties and plastic bags it came in.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 May 2014, 01:12

Sent the power supply back. It was after the return date but Amazon was cool and I got a partial refund. Running with the PS from the old computer.

The CPU hit 71C/161F but usually was 69C/157F during a render. It idles at 47C/116F. Room temp a little over 29C/85F. 55C is recommended and 62C max safe. It throttles itself to slower speed at 70C. So I'll be sure the cooler is installed well and see what I can do about fans.

Shell1850 · Post by **Shell1850** » 02 Jun 2014, 19:04

I worked on a computer that shut it self down. The problem was one of the wires would short to the power supply and shut down. I used a couple of layers of clear shipping tape. It fixed the problem. Voids the warranty but saved on shipping costs.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 18 May 2015, 18:39

It has been running at 60C during renders. I removed the Cooler Master Evo and the thermal paste and applied a thicker amount to ensure good coverage. That made no difference in temps so I added the blue fan salvaged from my old computer on the back of the mobo behind the cpu. There is a vent in the case there. That lowered the temp to 54C - 55C with room temp 77F/25C. I'll accept that since it is the recommended max temp.

What do you think of this idea? See annotated photo. Air flow is front to back from the fan on the front (photo right) of the radiator, through the radiator, and out via the fan on the back. Some upward too from the top fan. My old computer had this shroud on the fan for the cpu cooler. What if I put a shroud between the fan on the back and the cooler radiator. That would pull all the air exiting there through the radiator.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 18 May 2015, 18:44

Hmm... Fan in reverse (to suck in air) at the front or side of the case, then one fan pulling the air OUT of the case at the back. The biggest ones should suck out, while the other to work to pull in.

Also, changing fan speeds in the bios or with third party software.

Also, putting your CPU on low priority when rendering, it won't max the chips out.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 18 May 2015, 19:18

Thanks Draise. That sounds good. I cranked the fans up some and I'll turn that up some more. They speed up/slow as needed but the software lets me set that. Small power supply is near maxed so for now no more fans.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 19 May 2015, 04:41

Repasting the CPU with a thicker layer isn't a good idea, that's not how thermal paste works. Thicker paste won't lead away heat more efficiently, it can in fact become less efficient as a result of doing so. If you applied the paste properly the first time then there is no reason to re-paste it again unless it gets hard, if it does then you should use a different paste.

The blue CPU fan at the back looks cute. Can't say I have ever seen that before on a configuration such as this. You may want to move the fan you have up top (pulling air up and possibly ruining the airflow if not controlled properly) to the other side of your Hyper Evo.
The Evo comes with extra mounting pads and I think that fan is a 120mm fan so it should fit. Set it up in a push/pull configuration leading air out through the back.

You also want to tuck away some of those power cables, try to put them in between the rear wall and the back cover. That will also improve the airflow in your rig. I don't know where your front fan is, I'm guessing at the bottom. To further improve the airflow, move the Hard Drives as far down as you can so the fan can blow as much cool air into the case as possible and I think you'll max out the cooling efficiency of what you've currently got.

The only reason to use that shroud would be if you have a heatsink & fan mounted flat on the CPU pushing air up (or to the side, depending on how you see it), out through the case door/cover. With the EVO in this configuration, that is not necessary.

About your temps during load, I don't remember what CPU you're using but if you're using a third generation Intel i7 (or even and i5) then 60C at load is perfectly normal. Ivy Bridge CPUs are known to run pretty hot, luckily Intel CPUs tend to handle heat quite well.
I had my i7 run at 110 C when I first plugged it in (due to a crappy cooler where the fan got stuck, silly me, don't recommend you do this) and it never once BSODd. I should mention that was over two years ago and that it still runs fine today at a 4.1 Ghz overclock.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 May 2015, 15:16

A customer upgraded his computer and gave me his old Geforce GT 640! I had a GT 610 so that's many more cuda cores and 2x or 4x the memory. It was packed with dust (always a problem in the desert plus I'm a slob). Cleaned it up and it's running great. Now if I can get some gpu rendering programs ...

Yeah that back-of-the-mobo fan is unusual. The evo mounting bracket was warm to touch when rendering so I knew there was an opportunity for cooling there. The case has a vent there for a 120mm fan but I attached this smaller fan to the evo's mounting bracket which happened to have holes right for the fan bolts. This fan reduced cpu temps about 5C!

I had a minimum amount of paste on it at first. The idea was to have maximum metal to metal contact and just fill air spaces with the paste. Spread a little and scrape most off with a plastic edge. Other advice on the web used a little more for a thin layer. Thinking I had too little I changed it but it made no difference. I might get some high end paste in the future. Fans, air flow, all only as good as conduction into the radiator.

A shroud, as considered for this, would have been to improvise a push-pull but you're right about adding the second fan to the radiator. It is designed for that and the shroud would be a clumsy improvisation. In the old machine the shroud went from a vent on the side of the case to the blue cpu fan (above) to ensure cool air from outside was used.

I'll look at the airflow issues some other time.

AMD's run notoriously hot. I read that 62C is max that's ok and 55C recommended max. Running around 55C or 54C on renders now so that is ok.

With people overclocking already hot cpu's and spending thousands on computers you would think there would be a refrigerated cooler for computers. A miniature air conditioner. Worth it to "high enders". (For interesting history see Cray-2 and Fluorinert).

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 19 May 2015, 19:26

I stop using AMD processors a long time ago. They always overheated and ended up frying the mother board.

MikomDude · Post by **MikomDude** » 19 May 2015, 19:26

Finis wrote:With people overclocking already hot CPUs and spending thousands on computers you would think there would be a refrigerated cooler for computers. A miniature air conditioner. Worth it to "high enders". (For interesting history see Cray-2 and Fluorinert).

Ah, with the cooling of PCs it's not really a matter of getting it as cool as possible. It's all about keeping stable temps.

The reason why you wouldn't use AC coolers or any form of freezing technology on your PC is because you want to keep your CPU running at room-temperature. Anything below that and there is a risk of condensation, which you don't want for obvious reasons. All about finding the proper balance really.
With other extreme cooling methods there may be a risk of electromagnetic interference.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 May 2015, 22:28

Goal would not be to make it super cold but to counter super heat to maintain optimum temp.

AMD chips? New computer build maybe.

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