United3dArtists Archive

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 11 Aug 2009, 07:56

We show here many achievements, most for fun. The animation that I present to this forum is just for fun. I never showed my achievements for professional activity here. Yet TrueSpace represents 80% of my professional activity. It would be nice to know what kind of only achievement professional you do with trueSpace and only made with tS: it is to know the REAL use of tS in the PROFESSIONAL world (i know you use a lot of different soft).
I am a designer of luxury product. I use trueSpace for my 3d projects. My 3d models are intended to be manufactured by the industry. I have no boss and I work at home. I work for different countries using the internet. For two years I do also animations for TV advertising.
and you?

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 11 Aug 2009, 12:15

I used to only use Truespace for professional purposes thats why i bought it in the first place ...
and that was somewhere around 2001. I had Strata first. the reason why I came to 3d was that i needed parts
for my Photoshop compositings.... but i dont use anything exlusively anymore
I also produced objects like rings for folders ... some stuff where the production wasnt finished yet
so I gradually slipped into 3d but my profession is and will be that of a photographer not of a 3d artist......
For my next exposition i am making the backdrops all in 3d and all of a futuristic theme.
I even use them in frontprojection (old techique but still).
Because I was interested in photorealistic results I most of all outgrew lightworks.....
the rest you know....

First Light · Post by **First Light** » 11 Aug 2009, 13:51

Hi marcel,

I originally got trueSpace for professional work around 1994. The following illustration contains my first 3D objects: the inductor (red coil of wire) on the left and the capacitor (blue object) in the middle.

The illustration is still used today for my passive crossover network program (X-over Pro). This is a computer program that designs the electrical circuits that divide sound between multiple drivers in a loudspeaker (such as a woofer, midrange driver, and tweeter).

Best regards, First Light

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 11 Aug 2009, 16:18

Even if you use several soft (that is a good thing) it is interesting to see what part in your work is made with trueSpace. Because all the jobs are different, the use of trueSpace is sometime useful and sometime less interesting. TrueSpace is a good soft for my need because i don't work with a team and i do that i want (no problem of time or kind of files to use). I think there is no people who use trueSpace in a company for other reasons than the quality of the soft. Rayman need a photorealistic render engine, other people need other thing and there is always a soft for our need.

you've probably seen perfume bottles in stores made by me, even if you don't know. These bottles have NEVER existed without tS because i use tS not only to do a nice image but to search an idea (i don't use paper for that since a long time). It is the first quality of tS (for me): simple and quick modeler to help me when i begin a project. And the most important: i don't lost time to do what i have in my brain because i know very well my tool (model side). Today i use the workspace for the fun but i am not ready to use it as a professional. This side is not useful for my need and I do not want to learn more. The best tool are not always the best solution. Only the result is important. Maybe a thread of professional work (know, famous or not) made with trueSpace would be a promotion of the soft (and you).
ps: First Light is alway very courteous in his messages.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 Aug 2009, 16:41

Maybe a thread of professional work

I'm not a pro. I'd like to see professional's work. In addition to being interesting amateurs could compare their own skills to the pros. Some might be surprised to discover that they have the skill to become pros.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 11 Aug 2009, 17:49

Most of the things I have used TS for are corporate market illustration work eg logos. I am attaching a sample of a graphic I proposed for one client ... I liked it because it took a few hours to figure out what I thought really needed to be expressed for the company and about 15 minutes to put it together.

I also used TS to work on the characters and maps for a game I was making based on the board game I invested in when I left banking... that project died the death of 1,000 cuts so I don't have any work I would show here.

First Light · Post by **First Light** » 11 Aug 2009, 18:01

Hello again,

@v3rd3: Nice compass!!!! Most excellent!!!!

@marcel: Please show us some of your perfume bottles. You do such excellent work and it would be great to see them.

Regarding workflow, up to now I've worked just with still images and my workflow almost always terminates in an Adobe program---usually Photoshop (90%) or Illustrator (10%). Often, I'll shoot "raw" digital photos (which I "develop" into a wide-gamut image inside Photoshop) and create illustrations in multiple programs like trueSpace and Illustrator. Then I'll import them into Photoshop to create the final composite illustration. You can't beat Photoshop for its control with layers. Most of the time I work in a 16-bit/RGB channel color space inside Photoshop until I'm ready to create the final output. Then I downsample to 8-bits/RGB channel.

There are very, very few programs that can do this. Working at 16-bits/RGB channel uses huge amounts of memory but it enables me to avoid "bruising" pixels while editing. It is also important for much of my work because it tends to involve low-light photography where there are fewer data bits in an image. A wide-gamut calibrated display is also important.

Here's a rare animated image that I created in Photoshop but it is consists of only two frames and was used to introduce a lesson about two rotation techniques in a Photoshop workshop that I taught a couple of years ago. I shot the original image in a dark auditorium under ambient stage lights. All of the effects were created in Photoshop.

Best regards, First Light

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 11 Aug 2009, 19:19

First Light wrote:Hello again,
@marcel: Please show us some of your perfume bottles. You do such excellent work and it would be great to see them.

Here are some examples of classic bottles. Projects are finished and sold in shops. I think I have about one hundred bottles sold on the market among several thousand design i made. The bottle at the bottom of the image is a special project: it is made of platinum, gold, diamond and ruby. The box is made by Rolls-Royce ($ 90,000 each). it was purchased by Mike Tyson, Michael Jackson and other billionaires. The hardest thing is not the design is to convince the marketing team of big companies. In october i present a project of silver bottle for the sultan of oman. today i am looking for Saoudia, emirates, kuwait for futur projects. They have money to do fantastics projects. But for the future i am interesting in animation for personnal projects. truespace is my best friend for design. Design give me money and with money i can do animation for fun. I can stop working for 6 months if I want and do animation. It is my way of life.
ps: i am not rich! i am just a designer.

You can see more on my web site.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 11 Aug 2009, 20:41

Beautifully done Marcel!

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 11 Aug 2009, 21:00

v3rd3 wrote:Beautifully done Marcel!

thank!

I am not proud of the quality of my work. I am proud because I love my job.

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 12 Aug 2009, 00:55

You should be proud of both.

First Light · Post by **First Light** » 12 Aug 2009, 02:08

Wow marcel!!!! Exquisite!!!!! And the materials ... unbelievable! Wow! Wow! Wow!

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 12 Aug 2009, 06:44

Thank.
i don't want to do a photorealistic work but an image to help to understand the design. It is between an illustration and a photo. I use lightwork + hdri for the reflects and vray for caustics. I do 2 different image and combine them. it is easier to control the result because hdri is better with a lot of light and caustic is better with one or some light. Also the time to render of both image is less than one wich use vray+hdri.
i hope to see professional work of members of tSCommunity when they are income from Holiday

Here is different old work:

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Aug 2009, 14:51

These are renders? I thought they were photos of the finished products from your designs. In art an image can be made better because it is not truly real. It can present or emphasize some aspect of the objects, a mood, an idea, that a seeing the real thing couldn't. Here Marcel has used art to make images more real than real. A technically photo-realistic picture, like with all the caustics, wouldn't look as real as these.

Great looking designs. Each item has its own style, its own look.

How do you do this business? Do you design something on your own and then contact companies that might want it? Do companies contact you to ask for a design? How do they learn that you design things?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 12 Aug 2009, 18:48

@ finis:
(I try to explain with my poor english)
There are 3 options: make a photorealistic render, a well-defined style, or change reality to make it more understandable. this is the third solution I use for design (and the second for animation). I think my work is ok when client don't see 3d and see just a clearer vision of his problem. The refflets of a glass bottle can interfere with understanding. 3d makes the subject more understandable while giving the illusion that we see is reality. For caustics just find the right position of the lighting to create a graph that highlights the shape of the object. refflets for the choice of HDRI environment does not correspond to reality but aesthetic. it is very difficult to be satisfied with both hdri and caustic in the same render. That is why to work in stages is more productive in quality and quantity. When I made a design I know how the product will be achieved in manufactories and how much it will cost. this avoids problems during manufacturing. Design for industry is not only art.

before I worked in a company and I have kept in touch with some clients. I was a little tired of beating me with the marketing teams of big companies. Their arguments are close to the ridiculous. Today I am independent designer and I work at home. I do not propose design as an objet to sale . I realize the projects after a talk with the client. not need long speeches. just a good image. I work directly with the boss without intermediaries. Today I prefer more artistic activities or useful to develop environmental projects. Maybe later...

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Aug 2009, 19:17

Thanks for the explanation Marcel. How do the clients find you? How do they know that you design things? Is it from your contacts from when you worked for a company?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 12 Aug 2009, 20:15

Since i work alone i have enough contact from my old clients when i worked for a company. Now i work for friends of clients. Or clients of clients....the world is little but i worked 24 years for company before I decide to work alone. Since this change I never looked for clients. Maybe I am a lucky man. Sometime i work gratis for a client and the next month he present to me a new client. It is true especially in some small and rich countries as emirates, qatar, oman...i never work with a contract except if I do not know the client. It is a problem of human relationship. a very different world than big company i knew. when the marketing begins between designer and boss, work becoming more complicated. I avoid that even if I lose money. And when we are in a crisis it is that kind of work we lose first. Human relationships are more durable than commercial relations.

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 16 Aug 2009, 17:53

Almost the same story here :

trueSpace is still my primary tool, and is my only 3D tool. Most of my work is about 3D visualisation for architects and industrial project offices. But I also offer movies and websites.
To start my business, 10 years ago, I only sent emails to 5 companies.
Two of them responded, ordered a first design, got satisfied with both my price and the work done, and forwared my phone number to their own clients/friends/contacts...

So today I've got enough orders, and more clients coming

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 17 Aug 2009, 00:45

i don't want to do a photorealistic work but an image to help to understand the design. It is between an illustration and a photo. I use lightwork + hdri for the reflects and vray for caustics. I do 2 different image and combine them. it is easier to control the result because hdri is better with a lot of light and caustic is better with one or some light. Also the time to render of both image is less than one wich use vray+hdri.

I was going to ask how you got the glass to look right, that's pretty cool. I was wondering whether to try this myself for some product designs I'm doing, but to be honest didn't think it would look right. It's great to still learn new things in ts.

I don't think there's anything stopping anyone from doing great work in ts if they're willing to work hard. I'm still disappointed with 7.* and how vray and dribble ended up, but I'm still using ts for my portfoilio stuff (what will come of this, who knows) even though I have other 3d options, so I guess that says it all.

The same goes for hexagon. Not happy with it's development, but I still prefer to use it over others that perhaps are technically better, like Blender. That said it would be really, really nice for a change if the owners of an app I end up liking don't completely stuff things up.

After the past three years, every time I think about trying a new piece of software I get the shakes.

CdeB · Post by **CdeB** » 20 Aug 2009, 13:15

Hi to return to Marcels orginal post...

A book was waiting for me on my return from holiday and it prompted me to think and then add something to this thread

I am not a 3D professional, but a professional that uses 3D

(In conjunction with this post I have made an avatar and updated my details to illustrate the point

)

I am a cell biologist who uses 3D images to both communicate my results and to illustrate my written work.

Back to the book...

The book I received on my return from holiday was one I contributed a chapter to. However, I noticed the publishers/editors? had decided to use my 3D figure for the front page illustration of the whole book. So I may be in a transitory phase here!
However, science publishing is a bit like vanity publishing...at best you break even, but more commonly you pay for the priviledge of having your article published (even or especially in top journals...) Crazy, I know

. (With the case in point I broke even!). In my book (no pun intended

) a professional is somebody that earns money from their endeavours, so on those grounds I do not qualify....but I have made a decision to use trueSpace now in all my "professional work"

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 30 Aug 2009, 22:20

CdeB wrote:I am not a 3D professional, but a professional that uses 3D

To write a text with a computer was a profession. Now this is just a tool used by all professions. The 3d should to look like that. It is important to have simple tools for all those professions that can benefit by using the 3d. Making 3d for research is very interresting. It allows you to view your ideas without going through other way more costly. Is also invaluable to test ideas. Making 3d for the 3d is an academic approach. Without real project it tired quickly. It is why i consider all soft as tools. i use only what i need and don't learn all the tool just for fun. My pleasure is in my plans.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 30 Aug 2009, 23:16

marcel wrote: i use only what i need and don't learn all the tool just for fun. My pleasure is in my plans.

You cant do that because it takes a considerable time to learn many of them and one foregets pretty much.
But its a good idea to always look at new things and give them a short glance.
You dont have to do everything with one package.
Plus the topology of all models are not the same. Not all render engines give you the same results.....
Some methods are just 5 times as fast.
Bottom line is that you will end up with your own pipeline depending on what you want to do.
That workflow will change throughout the years....

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 31 Aug 2009, 00:10

Rayman: i know you like to learn softwares. I studied software for more 30 years. When I was the best in my company, people used me as a 3d performer not as a creator because they win time

. It become tired of not being able to do what I wanted. Since I am independent, I can create what I want. As long as my tools allow me to work properly, I use my time to create. When I need something else, I can study a new tool but experience is the most important thing in the buziness. I know some very gifted technician but unable to conceive a project. I use 3d for my work but I know how things are manufactured, how much it will cost and how long it takes to achieve them. All this takes time and I need to make a choice. If i wanted to know everything, I would do nothing. The pleasure to see my creation that takes place in the real world is more important than having just a virtual representation (and no money). But that's fine there are people like you here. You show useful things and everyone finds his interest. I use often the "Rayman search"

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 31 Aug 2009, 10:17

I dont learn new things only for pleasure it gives me a broader view of 3d.....
I spend 90 % of my time creating too ! And I do much less learning then many of the
pro´s in the business. If I compare my knowledge to some other peoples I just scratch the surface.
Just because I only post 10 % of what I do to the forum shouldnt give you a wrong idea.
Most of what i create is property of my clients and I dont post that. Apart from it being mostly
unspectacular.Plus it mostly involves photography as a great part of it.
In a photography there would be 5 pieces of jewelery realy photographed and one or one part 3d....
Its mostly the average and unspectacular jobs that get you the money.
Didnt you see that I never talked about 3dmax or Lightwave or Maya or cinema 4d .....
mainly because they are unspectacular but good packages. you could use any of them.....
I was talking about special tools of special products..... and of those only the ones that considerably
speed up your workflow or fit together in a special way. I talk about booleans in nurbs ( whatever product) or painting with
pictures (whatever product ) or using physics from TS in another package using Collada.
Or the only free standalone renderengine that you can use with Ts.....
I dont care about packages ... give me a better tool and i will gladly take it up.
What company that comes from i don t realy care ! I´m not in love with any of them and most will know
I´m not in love with Truespace.....its just a tool.......

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 31 Aug 2009, 14:14

I think we have the same vision. The only difference is that I am much less motivated to learn new software today. Probably because I have done for years. if you have old professionals work who are no longer confidential, you can show them here. Even if is not 3d.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 31 Aug 2009, 14:50

Rayman, nonprofessionals like me are interested in seeing what pros do even when the pictures aren't spectacular. Post some pictures or links to sites that show some of your work. Nonpros are interested in seeing what gets you paid even if it isn't a interesting picture.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 31 Aug 2009, 17:43

Just a few of what I did...but most has to do with photography...

http://www.sillam.com/index.php" (there is tons of pictures in there all from myself)
http://www.patriciakaiser.at/news/index ... icle_id=61"
http://www.fashionoffice.org/design/absolut3-2004.htm"
http://www.fashionoffice.org/design/lahong7-2003.htm"
http://www.cusoon.at/original/121611803 ... n-wien.jpg"

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 31 Aug 2009, 18:46

thank for the link, i'll see that later.

Some infos for those who would to become 3d pro (Many people ask me):
3d is not a job, it is a tool. There are two main ways to make images:
1 - The image is a finished work (illustration magazine, photo, painting artist, cg movie,...)
In this case you sell an image as a final product.
2 - The image is used to present a project (design, architecture, scientific simulation, ...)
In this case, You sell an idea for a futur project not an image.
I work for both case. animation and design.
When I made advertising for television, 3d represents 75% of the budget, the idea 25%.
When i made product design, 3d represents 20% of the budget, the idea 50% and the necessary technical development 30%.
It is easier to begin with the first case (if you are artist and good in 3d) unless you have good training in the career that you choose.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 31 Aug 2009, 19:10

Thanks for sharing your experience with us

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Sep 2009, 17:47

RAYMAN wrote:Just a few of what I did...but most has to do with photography...

I understand why you are interested in render engine. When you done with photography, it's hard to find the same quality with 3D technology because there are so many parameters that disturbs the light in reality. Simple details such as the diffraction of light through the hot air is essential that the 3d does not most of the time. The reality is so complex that even the most sophisticated software can only simulate a render. It will take much time to get there even if the current simulation can not deceive only the eye of a specialist. Fortunately, the animation is less demanding because the movement often hides imperfections. It is a problem of time to render too. some technology of rendering can't be used because computer need more power. Render engine story have a long way to do and thank to the progress of cpu and gpu.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Sep 2009, 19:44

Yup you see why a very good photorealistic render engine is on top of my wish list... and why I cant use vray with the broken glass shader..

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » 11 Sep 2009, 03:50

I'm going to post something that is very crude compared to the really superb 3D artists, but it is about the only example of being paid for a trueSpace image.

I had a client (now deceased, and the store closed), that had a vision for his little Christmas ornament/ candy shop. He planned to add some oak columns and frame the opening to the back of his store. He wanted the website to look like the vision of his planned remodel. The tile texture was made from a photo of the actual tile in the front (cafe) part of the store. There were candy cases and a piano in the way of getting a clean photo to the back of the shop, so I digitally repaired/created elements that were eclipsed in the bottom left and bottom right of the photo. I made the front ("milk chocolate brown") wall, oak columns and oak trim in trueSpace, and composited the photo behind that. I then used the tile texture to create a floor, and gave it high reflectivity to try to coax the 3D feel of the room. (I should have textured the walls, and was never happy with the "oak" textures I made.) I spent quite a bit of time playing with lights to try to get a sense of the incandescent light coming from the back room meeting the sunlight coming from behind the visitor. The render was all in TS - I am sure other render engines could have done a better job.

This reduced size screen capture has gone through several JPG compressions, and lost much of the intensity of the original art, but what the heck, it gives an idea of the project. I think it is the only TS work I ever got paid for. (And, the store owner loved it, which I guess is the final test.)

Dennis

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 11 Sep 2009, 07:55

Dennis: Thank you for sharing your experience. It's always interesting to show that Truespace is not just fun. It can also help us in our professional work or just to win some money. The money earned from a job we love has more flavor. Do not hesitate to show your work even if you think it is not good. Here, history and how are more important than quality. Another way to know more the members.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » 12 Sep 2009, 15:09

I'am working as a Art and Crafts teacher. Sadly there is no much time for my interest of CG. Earlier I used pens and crayons to do the renderings. I was educated at that time the computers hardly were used. Now I often use TS to visualisation of my ideas. This is renderings of a rebuilding a house which I have made this summer. In the start of the process I use to have a couple of different suggestions to find out what the client relly want. And then work further with the idea that the customer finds best to suit his demands.

3dfrog · Post by **3dfrog** » 12 Sep 2009, 17:29

I would not consider myself really a pro at this point. I am certainly not a pro in terms of would i be able to work for pixar or something. But I do consider myself semi pro as I do make a small secondary income from 3d. I use ts in every project I do, usually the modeling and touch ups or any special things it needs. I don't have anything from the past couple of years that has not been touched by truespace in one way or other. I juggle a lot of tools to get the job done. My three favorite and most used tools are truespace, 3d coat, and messiah 3d. With these the possibilties are pretty endless. I think I know ts pretty darn good at this point, 3d coat is almost a no brainer, and messiah has so many levels to it, i could probably spend a good few more years learning all the ins and outs. I use messiah in a pretty basic way but it does the job the way i use it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :p

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 12 Sep 2009, 18:13

You don't need to be able to work for Pixar. Be pro does not mean you're better or specialist. it's just a question of money. When you win money legally you are a pro. Many amateur are talented and uses TS for pleasure. I think you need to be your own boss To be pro and use TS. Large companies do not allow the choice of tools so there are not many professional use TS. People like me can do that because they have a very specific profession that can benefit from using ts. But the most important is the experience of your profession. Ts is my tool and i would nothing without specific knowlegde even if i was the best with TS. I would tell students to choose their profession before choosing their tool.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 12 Sep 2009, 18:59

Unfortunately I discover Truespace when I was very young and use since that, I love TS as a person and it is being discontinued it's like a cancer because I know that someday I'll need to stop using it and I'll need to choose other soft I'll adapt well and with no problems but will not be the same person I'll need to love other...

I'm helping my father with some 3D models publicity, nothing much complicated it's just some to give a more cool view... In a near future I post something of I'm doing. When I was very very young and just discovered TS 3.2 I helped my father to do an animation that wins 5 or 4 star in renominate site, I forgot, but remember he telling be thanks to help him I don't remember if is 4 or 5... But I just helped creating a gradient (Dark Gray to White) monolite (a rectangle cube) and rendering it 3 times with different angles (45, 90, -45), I don't remember so much but that's all I'm using TS fr professional means, now I'm just training to reach an good know how and then create really good scenes and designs for commercial uses... Anyway It's just fun for now...

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 12 Sep 2009, 19:09

3dfrog wrote: I use messiah in a pretty basic way but it does the job the way i use it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :p

It would be cool to know how you use it because basic is all what most of the time is needed.
Would be very interesting to find out how you move your animations without using a plugin of the big 4...

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Sep 2009, 20:33

3DFrog, I'd like to know about how you use Messiah too. Also, isn't Messiah unimaginably expensive? What version are you using?

3dfrog · Post by **3dfrog** » 13 Sep 2009, 15:10

Here's how I pretty much used messiah in kingdom kids:

Import my ts characters into messiah.
Rig characters with autorig and save to individual files.
Import scene models and create scene, set up lights and textures, etc.
Merge character files.
Animate

Thats pretty much it.

Messiah is not incredibly expensive. I have messiah pro 4, the current version. Got the upgrade for 299. Messiah 4 pro is on sale now for 599.00, I recommend pro, but you can get basic for 399.00.

http://www.projectmessiah.com

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 13 Sep 2009, 16:32

Thanks Frog for the information !

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Sep 2009, 17:56

Thanks 3DFrog. It is a bargain at those prices. I had it confused with Houdini Master ($7000 to $10000).

So you model in TS and then do most of the rest in Messiah.

goldengel · Post by **goldengel** » 15 Sep 2009, 17:26

I use Truespace to create some icons.

I hope it will not crash for animations anymore to do some more stuff on it.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 15 Sep 2009, 18:10

If your scene have no problem, you will have no problem to do animation. I use lightwork on the model side to render animation in hight definition without problem. Lightwork is the most stable part of truespace. On the workspace you have other tools but it is for realtime. You need to choose between workspace and modelside side before beginning an animation because most anim tools are not compatible. It depend of what you do.

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