United3dArtists Archive

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 22 Sep 2009, 20:02

Here I'll post my progress in this MMC, the scene will be a small ally outpost with trenches, weapons, bullet holes, etc... I think that will be very nice and fun do it, also it's a tribute to ally soldiers. I'm just with the idea in mind yet... Some days and you will see some arts here..

Thanks

First MMC >.>
EDIT: Was the first, not more...

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 24 Sep 2009, 08:15

sounds like a good idea for a scene, WW2 also crossed my mind for this, still wanna do some WW2 battle scenes...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 24 Sep 2009, 10:12

Yeah Theuns, since the start I think to join and do this scene... So now I'm doing,

I not started yet but will start this afternoon the weapon that will appear more times in the scene. A little history of the Springfield M1 Garand: The most used weapon from US infantry, the first capable to shot supersonic bullets.

Needs to be identical, will spend at the max 10 hours in that... I also need to do some knifes, nazi weapons, clothes, helmets, sand bags until start my scene. I'll need a lot of help by your side, principally to make the texture, the models no problem!

Thanks!

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 24 Sep 2009, 11:19

remember to decide what camera shot you are going to use because making high detail models with a zoomed out shot will waiste a lot of time spent on modeling. Only if you are going to have close up of a soldier or the piece of ground where the weapon lies will you need high detail models....

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 24 Sep 2009, 13:11

This weapon will appear several times in the scene, so really needs to be highly detailed

Thanks for the info Theuns

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 24 Sep 2009, 14:03

...the M1 is my favorite weapon in WW2 FPS games like Call of Duty and Brothers in Arms... those gaming programmers have the characteristics and performance details of these vintage weapons down very accurately in the latest FPS games and it keeps on getting better...

Rule of thumb: if it is more than about a couple of meters from camera view point, you need around half the actual model details...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 25 Sep 2009, 01:29

Long day, not a good day for this WIP, all my advance...

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 25 Sep 2009, 05:40

very good start so far, too spite not being a good day...

i've got a kind of writers block at the moment, i guess you could call it modelers block! ;)

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 26 Sep 2009, 02:21

Implementing aim system to the weapon and doing the recharge system (When finish that will be very fast finish the model), remember that this image is without SDS so the shapes are correctly made

... Things going very slow :T

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 26 Sep 2009, 13:56

coming along nicely... and you have a whole month to model but with a nicely detailed weapon like this, you should make it part of the foreground to keep the focus on it, perhaps lying in the trench or fox hole with a bullet holed helmet next to it?

have you thought of a scene to put it in?

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 26 Sep 2009, 14:21

I'll draw the scene and post here, maybe tomorrow... The weapon will be in first plane of course, I'll not show bodies even if that what are left after a battle. I will show burn uniforms, broken helmets, pierced sandbags with sand flowing out, things like that... Unexploded grenades

Thanks Theuns, I'll try to almost finish the model today... I need to do a Search of History to school, guess which is the subject

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 26 Sep 2009, 17:27

theuns wrote:very good start so far, too spite not being a good day...

i've got a kind of writers block at the moment, i guess you could call it modelers block!

I know that feelin! I don't think I've done anything constructive model wise for 6 weeks

its coming on nicely leonregis

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 26 Sep 2009, 18:38

Great start so far. Always wanted to do a scene like this myself. As for the rifle, it is a bit hard to see how you are going about this as the pics are a bit small. Personally, depending on how prominent the model will be in your scene, I would either do a very basic box model and just texture it with a colour photo of the one you are using as a reference. Or, if its a "Hero" model, and your intending to apply SDS, then I would make it in 2 distinct parts. The wooden part, the stock, grip etc which is known collectivly as the "furniture" and the metal parts. This splitting process would allow easier control of the level of SDS and also allow the application of a procedural shaders rather than spending days on UV mapping and texture creation. HTH.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 30 Sep 2009, 23:44

I'm back!

I've been away from my projects because of my search and school. So now I've done some progress at the M1 Garand, the model is almost done just need the finishing touches then I will go to the texturing, that I'll be the most difficult part.
I Bring three images showing the model, isn't totally ready, just need small details that will make a huge difference.
Breech I'll be sincere to you... I don't understand anything of what you said, really sorry. I'm very new to the good texture world, and I'm needing this now, so I ask for your and others help for the texturing part of this weapon.

This is my first weapon... of course it's a illustration and not represents entirely the M1 Garand, I used a blue print and some images and this version usually don't appears at games, so maybe you don't recognize... I would like to know what you feel when you look at it, do you think: Ow a weapon! or WW2 American weapon? or That's the M1... Just to know if the models transmit what I want.

I will now start the helmet, grenade, cothes...

Cya

PS: Images without SDS, some of the reasons of I don't put SDS it's because Breech talk about something of it, so I'm with fear and blow up the model, I'll wait his reply.

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 01 Oct 2009, 01:11

nice modeling work leonregis..

I'm looking forward to seeing this within the context of a scene.

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 01 Oct 2009, 03:27

leonregis wrote:Breech I'll be sincere to you... I don't understand anything of what you said...

Lol, don't worry, we've all been there. It would take ages for me to explain all of that and take a lot more time than I have right now. I'd also need to get some reference pics and build a couple of models to show you more clearly what I mean. I might have some spare time over the weekend and may be able to post something up then.

In the meanwhile: A hero model is one that is going to be seen very clearly by the camera/audience. It is a Hollywood term for the identification and production of props. For example, when they make a huge great big battle scene in a war movie, only the soldiers closest to the camera (ie the movies big star heroes) would have real, working (ie blank firing) guns, whilst all the actors in the background would have non-working props. All this is obviously designed to save cost. In a way, you need to do the same, but your costs come not in dollars and cents, but in polygons. Every polygon you add costs you in computing power. Add a lot and your scene will become sluggish and difficult to navigate. Add too many and your scene wont render at all. So if an object, such as your rifle, is only going to be seen in the mid/background, you wouldn't put much detail on it. Not unless you intended to publish or print the work at some huge resoloution.

A procedural shader is a process where you can "paint" an objecy without having a texture map. Good texture maps are hard to make and take a lot of time to do properly. If the item is fairly big, you also get the problem where you can see the texture repeat itself. A procedural shader doesn't use an image, but calculates the texture to use via an algorithm. The advantage of this means you could paint a model of the great wall of china and no 2 stones would look the same. Good procedural textures also allow you to adjust some of the settings. So if the shader paints bricks for example, you could adjust the colour of the bricks, how old they looked, the gap between them, how often cracks appear etc. etc.

HTH.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 01 Oct 2009, 18:05

Thanks Tahnoak, hope finish it before the challenge ends...

Hey Breech, yeah this will be a Hero Model and others will appear at second plane but I could do they without SDS...
About procedural shaders, I know a bit of it... I would like to know if I can find shaders to create wood, scratch metal or things like that.
If anyone have a top view of a M1 Garand please post here I need because the top shape isn't correct.

Thanks

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 01 Oct 2009, 21:04

4 min modeled helmet, something is wrong, needs more modeling... Looks like the German helmet what is wrong?

Cya

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 01 Oct 2009, 22:05

Helmet problem solved... I think he is finished, just need some details and if anyone could help to do like this:

I don't know how to do that ''net'' around the helmet.
Now I'm doing the grenade, but before it I already have a grenade but is in cartoon style so I think that I'll need to do it again.
See the images

Karthogen · Post by **Karthogen** » 01 Oct 2009, 23:10

could you duplicate the helmet make it a little bigger and then with a net texture and alpha map make it see through?

Or

Perhaps the tutorial Prodigy did on his shopping cart model in the SMC could be of some help to make the rope.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 02 Oct 2009, 17:19

It's too complicated do that rope around the helmet... Then I need opinions, the helmet is good? Do you think that I need to do a new grenade or I can use that one (needs to be a realistic scene)? Someone gets a top view of M1 garand?

If you can reply those questions, please do that!
Cya

PS: I'll start the sandbags...

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 02 Oct 2009, 18:25

Karthogen wrote:could you duplicate the helmet make it a little bigger and then with a net texture and alpha map make it see through?
Or
Perhaps the tutorial Prodigy did on his shopping cart model in the SMC could be of some help to make the rope.

shopping cart model of prodigy would be a good solution but the wireframe need to be as the net. Begin the model with a sphere is not the best way (triangle at the top). With quad and sds you can have a net wireframe useful for this method. Try to use sds on a cube, extract the mesh and finish the model. I think rayman use other method with wireframe and Vue but the problem is the same: you need before a good quad construction to simulate the net.
For the alpha map, it is a problème of uvmap. Maybe a cubic uv projection and a tile texture.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 03 Oct 2009, 01:24

The sandbag is very simple to do, the secret is the texture and sewing details... I'm improving those sewings details. I also need to do it with cloth simulation to when I do the trench those bags looks in a realistic willing.

I need opinions yet!!! What are you thinking about my last models and do you think that I really need to change the cartoon grenade for a realistic one???

Cya

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 03 Oct 2009, 13:19

Still needing opinions, but now I need another thing... Which parameter of the cloth simulation in the workspace (Stretch, Bend, etc) can keep the volume? My sandbag loses the volume when impact the ground and in a few seconds looks like a damaged paper...

Need Help, thanks in advance

PS: I'm starting the ground, is better a plane to do that or a cube?

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 03 Oct 2009, 14:45

I'm doing the ground with a plane, I would like start the entrenchment now but need your help!!! I don't have much time, a month flies, I need to start the texturing too, but I think is better start the composition first. So please help me

Thanks in Advance

Karthogen · Post by **Karthogen** » 03 Oct 2009, 14:46

Sorry I can not help with the Clothe Sim, I have not had much luck with it myself.

The Grenade looks descent and I think it depends on how you are going to use it in the scene. I think the model will still work with more realistic textures.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 05 Oct 2009, 08:38

coming along nicely leo :)

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 05 Oct 2009, 21:29

Thanks Karthogen and Theuns!
I'm addicted to the Shared Space right now, so I didn't much progress, anyway here is the terrain without texture. I would like to hear what do you think and some tip for a more realistic way to model or texture for the terrain.
The terrain have a ''hole'' in the middle which will be the part where weapons, grenades, sandbags will be... The texture needs to be a mix of mud, clay, dirty and grass. So will be difficult do it realistic. Anyway I'll try. But I'm near to give up, I need to learn other things and seems that this scene will no be cool enough

Cya

PS: You can see also craters of artillery or grenades...

Steve · Post by **Steve** » 05 Oct 2009, 22:36

this project's going great, keep going

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 06 Oct 2009, 08:05

sandbag with cloth simulation looks much better than without... how did you do the cloth simulation to look like that?

terrain looks good as it is, don't worry about it too much because the texture will make up most of the look and you won't see a lot of the terrain geometry unless you use a very plain texture...

there is a default shader that looks like a mesh cage, i've used that before as a rope net texture on an air balloon and it worked fine, check the attached screen shot: choose "Material Library" on the left, the browse for "metals2" and choose "Hex Mesh" shown on the top right under the tear drop mouse cursor... just add another color layer and make it brown for the rope net color you want, then paint it on a copy of the helmet top shell... should work...

Karthogen · Post by **Karthogen** » 06 Oct 2009, 11:14

Can't wait to see how you put it all together. If you find a better way for terrain, let me know, that is one thing I could use some help with to.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 06 Oct 2009, 13:49

this is what i meant with the hex mesh...

create a copy of you object (my green sphere) and make it bigger, then paint it with "hex mesh" shader material and you get something like this...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 06 Oct 2009, 15:59

Thanks Theuns I tried it, don't reach a good result, but if I put it far maybe looks good

Here is the test.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 07 Oct 2009, 09:44

did you apply a UV map or something?

it is a quick and dirty trick and won't look good close up... here is how i used it, definitely not close range...

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 07 Oct 2009, 21:13

leonregis wrote:Now I'm doing the grenade, but before it I already have a grenade but is in cartoon style so I think that I'll need to do it again.

With regards your grenade model, its suitability really depends on where it is going to be placed in your scene. If it is a hero model then I would suggest either remodelling it or starting anew. If you are going to remodel it in to something more realistic, as with all 3D modelling, you need to understand how/why the real thing is constructed. The model/era of grenade you are looking for is the old chunky design, nicknamed the pineapple due to its close resemblance to the fruit. In WWII, the USA used the Mk 2 and Great Britain used the G36 both of which you can see in the image below. These grenades were designed to kill, as opposed to today's modern grenades like the L2 that are only designed to maim (the theory being it places a larger burden on the enemy force if you make them look after their wounded than it does if you kill their soldiers outright). With lethality in mind, the Mk 2/G36 variant of grenade was designed in such away that the inside of the outer casing was pre-etched so that when the grenade exploded, it would split the steel casing into squarish chunks. I have indicated this etch line with a red line on the image (obviously, the etching would transverse the entire case). These pre-determined exploding chunks would have razor sharp edges and their wedge shaped design was to ensure that the pieces would tumble at a tremendous velocity as they passed through the air and thus gouge deep tears into any exposed flesh and clothing with consummate ease.

With all this information in mind, if you now look back at your original 3D model, perhaps you will begin to see it looks a little toy-like, as opposed to the brutally designed grenades that were born out of that era. HTH.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 07 Oct 2009, 22:37

The simplest method for your helmet is to use the umwrapper projection and wrapped grid in the transparency shader. Before You need to erase all the face at the bottom of the helmet to avoid a closed object. Adjust setting for the grid and use transparent shadow.
Think simple to do better.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 11 Oct 2009, 18:07

I've been away loving the OurSpace and learning Yafaray, now I came back to this WIP, I really need to finish it!!! I just given up the rope around the helmet, to difficult and the helmet is good right now, just need some details like garand. I'll focus now the terrain, that looks to be the most difficult part. I also need to know what I will use as illumination and post process, like if will be black and white and will be at the dusk and with fog, things like that...

Anyway for now I'll need to do Prodigy's grass in some areas of the terrain and will discover how to do mud and put mud at the weapons, helmets. I also need to do the uniform! So many things

Breech, thanks for the explanation, I also have knowledge about WW2 grenades, thanks for show the grenades (looks like of the Day of Defeat ^^) anyway you modeled it, right? So I just want to know which process you used, booleans? Organic Modeling? Please... I had some troubles to create that cartoon grenade, so to create a realistic one will be terrible without some tips

Thanks for all...

Marcel: I did it but didn't worked, and the helmet shape hinders the spherical UV projection...

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 12 Oct 2009, 02:58

I didn't make the model, I just used those images to illustrate my point. If I were to model a grenade however, I would just start with a 6 sided cube, sweep up 5 times and then just apply the bevel and fillet tools to the faces. HTH.

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 12 Oct 2009, 10:20

here's a quickie one I used the lathe tool to get the shape

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 15 Oct 2009, 20:13

Well, I've been away, doing homeworks

Found some time to make the new grenade (tell me what you think). Bevel Tool ROCKZ

It's really poorly textured (need some scratches, rust, dirty and metal textures), here is:

: gre_p3.jpg (62.67 KiB) Viewed 6287 times

Now I'll start the bullets (you will see a lot in the scene), will be a fast work... Then the cloths, I even don't know if I have enough experience to do a good WW2 uniform, but let's see

Here is an unfinished gun that I'm doing parallel to the grenade...

Cya

PS: Thanks Breech and Nigec!

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 16 Oct 2009, 17:48

Great job on the grenade. Love the Thompson SMG as well. Get some good textures on there and this will turn out to be one helluva scene.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 16 Oct 2009, 22:46

Breech Block wrote:Great job on the grenade. Love the Thompson SMG as well. Get some good textures on there and this will turn out to be one helluva scene.

Thanks Breech, it really helps... On modeling I've no problems, the question is texturing... I don't have much experience in this area, anyway is better learn doing

I'm just warning all of you that may my scene gets a bit ugly because of the texturing work, ie, if something good at texturing pick my scene and work in that he would reach wonderful results.

So ongoing... I'm to finish the Thompson and them upload at my opensource section, with the grenade too.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 18 Oct 2009, 02:43

The Thompson Model is finished, just need some details (like the M1) that I'll add later, also need the textures. I'm doing the models and then when the scene composition be set up I texture them. I'm not with will enough to start doing the uniform (because I know that will be relative boring), but I need to start.

Thanks for all support, keep going...

PS: Pics without SDS

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 22 Oct 2009, 20:29

I quit the MMC, so the development of this scene will be significantly slower than before and might stop. Anyway Thanks for all support and help provided. I hope finish it someday, I already change the Title... Now the name haven't MMC Aug/Spt Outpost -

Thanks Again

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 24 Oct 2009, 16:17

After Controversial posts I'm getting back...

Here is some texture tests... Feedback please.

PS: Garand isn't completely finished.

EDIT: I added a new textured model, the Thompson... isn't completely finished too and I need to put some SDS, but for now you can say if something can be improved

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 25 Oct 2009, 00:45

I think I'm getting the hang of texture, I did the bullets... Please feedback
Now I need to do the cartridges and if possible a uniform.
I can't wait to start setting up the scene

Cya

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 25 Oct 2009, 02:56

Needs primers. The cases wouldn't be crumpled as in the fired picture but it does add dramatic effect.

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 25 Oct 2009, 03:16

The texture/shader on those shell cases look pretty good. BTW, crimped shell cases like the ones you have shown are normally formed from blank amunition. HTH.

I was going to have a bash at texturing your M1 Garand, but when I downloaded the file and tried to open it I got an "Unexpected End Of Archive" error message.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 25 Oct 2009, 16:15

@Finis: I'm a seer

I was sure that you will come and say that. I don't know much how a shell looks like after be fired, but by the movies I know that it just stay a bit burned where the bullet was... I did that for dramatic effect as you said, if possible could you post here or send to me a photo of a fired shell? Thanks for the contribution.

@Breech: Thanks... I know, but in the 40s bullets looks like that way, if I was going to do a nowadays scene I should use blank bullets. But thanks for that.
Thanks for the intention to texture the M1, I don't know why this happened, but I already fixed and put to download the textured version. Next time that it happens please post at the bug and problems section.

------------------------

Well, now I'm doing several tests on the ground. Here is some pics. I'll try to do some smooth footprints, how can I do that on a plane??? I dunno

BTW the thompson is for download and I'm going to upload the shells

Thanks

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 26 Oct 2009, 07:38

texbul_03.jpg is very good. We can see each day your progress.

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 26 Oct 2009, 09:31

I think the detail that you put into your models is great. I look at what you've done and i can see a number of places where I would have "missed that part"

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Oct 2009, 18:23

leonregis wrote:if possible could you post here or send to me a photo of a fired shell?

Probably plenty on the web but here you are. Fired has a dimple in the primer. Unfired does not. Mud was washed off of the rifle cases so the inside of the pistol case is a more correct texture.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 27 Oct 2009, 00:09

Thanks Marcel, as my longest project I like the progress effect... Some times I go to page 1 and read every single post until finish...

Thanks Tahnoak, I'm pretty detailist but I still don't know if this is a defect or a quality

Thanks Finis, interesting looks like nothing happened

I'll keep the model, since they won't be in close...
------

I'm starting the composition... So I'm just testing angles, compositions, lightnings and doing some more models (I did a backpack, a shovel, the trench formation). I did this one, just as test, but I'm not happy yet. I think I'll need to change the ground shape, anyway now that I definitely quit the MMC I'm not using Nitro anymore...

Thanks

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 27 Oct 2009, 19:41

WOW! You should have entered that last one with a close up steep angle to fill the lense and you would have had a great images leon! You could have won IMHO! :(

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 27 Oct 2009, 19:50

Maybe Theuns... we never know... The scene is just 40% complete I can do it much, much better! And you couldn't compare this to other MMC Pics, this is more like an SMC yet, don't have much models and hard work...

This week I'll have a little break on the project, but I finish it next week!

Thanks for all help...

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 28 Oct 2009, 05:39

Your models already have more detail than any of mine did for the Sherwood Outpost... for me an MMC is a prolonged SMC because of time constraints, just more than one low poly model arranged nicely into a scene. there is still a LOT more detail that i can and want to put in, but again, because of time, i probably won't, just like all my previous entries for MMC... ;)

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 28 Oct 2009, 21:48

I saw today at school Saving Private Ryan, before I saw that I just think, war isn't good. But now I think that war are terrible. After that I dream that a nuclear war happened and destroyed all world just left some small areas like where I was...

That initial scene is the most realistic I ever seen! I'm disturbed...

My models were too simple, just two weapons, sandbag, flag, helmet and grenade. Your scene is fill with things..

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 29 Oct 2009, 22:23

it is not the amount of objects that counts, it is how you arrange them... a very simple and basic scene with almost nothing in it could look wonderful with the right lighting and texture settings...

the trick is to find the right layout and arrangement of what you have.... look at the one below, all it really has is the little vehicle and the creature with simple "blockmen" positioned everywhere, not a lot of objects but the way you place them and the lighting you use makes all the difference...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 29 Oct 2009, 22:27

Wow, stunning work! The problem is that those blockman transmit an action felling, like if something was happening. My scene is dead, it's more difficult to show that, anyway I'm doing it, slowly, but doing. I'm doing some test with bullet holes then when I finish that composition I'll start another until get the right one...

Thanks

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 29 Oct 2009, 22:41

thats fine, your scene shows the desolation of destruction that comes with war, it should look deserted and motionless... it is also artistically symbolic as well if you think about it... after war, people are dead and gone and the earth is scorched and battered... those objects leave clues and other metaphoric stories for the viewer without action but through inaction...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 01 Nov 2009, 01:41

Howdy Folks, happy Halloween!

Thanks Theuns...
I bring one more image that has some new things but is not finished: I added two grenades, move the Garand, build one more trench, did holes at the Flag and the scene has DOF, just for test...
Of course it needs a lot of more things: Rocks and vegetation, WW2 Backpack, Burned sandbags, more bullets, blood pools (to show that there humans involved

), test some lightnings and found a background image...

Almost finishing this composition...
Please Feedback!!!
Thanks and Cya

Breech Block · Post by **Breech Block** » 01 Nov 2009, 04:52

Theuns has given you some great advice already. To add to that, I would say you have to have a clear idea in your mind what it is you want your image to say. Okay, it is a war image, but there are many aspects to war. For example is the war finally over and at last peace has arrived? Was the war over something silly and futile? Did good triumph over evil? Was it all a tragic waste or was it a victory for a just cause? What is your image trying to say? Once you have established this, it will help you construct you scene a lot more, especially in the lighting department. for example: early morning light would suggest a new dawn has arrived and perhaps with it new hope, whilst dark brooding storm clouds would be more suitable for a more sombre, desolate scene.

As for changes in the current scene, I would ensure you could see through the holes in the flag and dirty up the flag texture a bit. The Bunker at the back looks terrific, especially with the DOF, but the rifle in the middle ground looks way out of proportion to everything else. Are all your objects and distances properly scaled? I would also try and round off some of the edges on the rifle as this close to the camera they look way to sharp. You could either do this with the chamfer tool. Or you may get away with applying a smooth facet in the Material Editor.

As for improving the scene, I would add some coils of barbed wire and a brewed up tank on the horizon.

HTH.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:02

Back on the ammo thing. The ground is littered with unfired cartridges ... they still have the bullets. There would be fired cases everywhere from the fight. If a soldier dropped some while reloading then maybe some unfired.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 01 Nov 2009, 16:21

The position of objects in the image can enhance the drama. Sometime it serves no purpose to fill the space with too many elements. The simplicity of this picture shows many things. That is why it is very impressive.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 02 Nov 2009, 20:35

@Breech: I usually start my creations with nothing much clear, I just improvise and this is my way, maybe is no the better but is...

I really like how you explain things, where do you get that ability?

The wire and tank idea is great, will try to put it in.

@Finis: Yeah, there is some unfired because soldier let it fall or died while reloading, I could put some magazines near to say that those cartridges come out from the magazine.

@Marcel: I love simple thing, ironically I'm not good doing it... Anyway this is Composition #1 and the principal objective is show the battlefield scene, I already have the Composition #2 in mind, will start after finish this one. BTW thanks, the image is good and magnificent simple. Simplicity is a complexity solved!

Coming back... I did texture work and put a shovel, more cartridges a WW2 backpack and the scene has DOF as usual. Now I just need to fill the upper left side with wires and a wrecked tank or something like that, what will be hard to do is the background, I didn't find any background image that fits on this scene so I'll need to create... some trees, tall grass and things like that.

When I finish that will be really easy to start new compositions that will change completely the scenery.

Thanks and Cya

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 03 Nov 2009, 12:24

Looking good. Sorry to jump on the pile so late in the game but this is the first opportunity I have had (since I am away from home and don't have kids crawling all over me) to really study this and provide my own opinions/feedback.

1) Look at the scale of the grenade as compared to the other items (especially the helmet). It looks too big.
2) Look at the scale of the flag. I understand the symbolism that it is providing but it just makes me wonder what would have a flag that small on it. Which leads me to my next question...
3) Do you need to have that flag there at all? Does it matter if it is an American flag or a Russian flag or any other country? We know that WWII was hell and a lot of people died. Maybe you add another helmet that is different from the US helmet to show the loss of soldiers from other nations and remove the flag. To me the flag does not personalize the scene, the equipment that was used by the soldiers who were killed does.
4) I don't see any shadows from the guns on the ground. Is it because of the angle of the sun? I am having a hard time identifying the direction of the sun.
5) The gun stocks look too clean compared to the dirty ground they are on. I would think that there would be some similarities in the color on the gun stocks and the dirt that it is laying in as if wind had blown some dirt on them.

I really like the scene and think you are almost there with achieving the emotion that you are trying to evoke.

Hope that helps some.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Nov 2009, 14:34

Footprints would be good. Put a bloody hand print on a gun (wounded using it) or something. Things like that strengthen the perception that people were here.

I think the flag isn't too big but the pole it is on is too thick compared to it. That makes it look like a toy which effects the mood of the whole picture. Maybe put the flag on a taller pole in the background. That implies there is something like an HQ or depot or outpost that they were defending. That expands the scope of your picture and invites the viewer to imagine a larger scene.

With the pole to flag and grenade to helmet proportions being odd maybe you should get some measurements and fit all the models to them or use reference photos to adjust the sizes.

You worked hard on the sand bags but they are hardly visible. Some other objects are just mysterious blurs. If that is supposed to be smoke or dust it doesn't look like it. Less depth of field would fix this.

A German, Italian, or Japanese object near the foxhole could imply close up combat. Items from the UK or other allies might help with "implied expansion of scope".

Don't think that long lists of suggestions mean your picture isn't good. They are mostly just details.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 08 Nov 2009, 15:12

Thanks Tahnoak your comment is one of the most helpful for the scene...
1) You're right... fixed
2) Adjusted the scele
3) You are right, maybe I need to create some objects that represents other nations involved, but for composition 1 I'll keep the flag...
4) I don't know but is strange, for some reason I think that the light aren't casting shadows, I'm using Noon Light of the library, I just modified the angle and the color a little.
5) I didn't understand it completely, I soiled it a little in my last pic, do you saw?

I really appreciate this comment, thank you very much!

---
Finis your comment also is great and really improved the scene, thank you.

I make the pole less thick and I agree with you that it looks like a toy before, but I was not sure if was the flag. I create a low-poly depot, where the flag now stay.
The DOF is to strong, I agree. Now I make it a little more smooth, and how can I make something like fog/smoke... to looks like a low mist?
Will work on more objects for the next composition.
---------------------------
Ok I had the opportunity to work slowly this weekend, I fixed some problems and put some improvements that Tahnoak and Finis suggested, thanks again, now I'll work in the final details... like the sky and some foot prints and hand prints, I did some tests with it and the hand prints is almost invisible so I don't think that I'll add it, but the footprints are on the way...

As I said before, I create a low-poly depot (Finis suggestion), an broke vehicle, wire and barricades (Both Breech suggestion), worked on the scale ( Tahnoak and Finis suggst).

Tons of suggest are always welcome

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Nov 2009, 15:46

To do smoke, several options:

1. I recommended using one or more planes with textures of whispy smoke on them. Transparency mask as needed.

2. Post processing in Paint Shop or such.

3. For a low layer of fairly even dust or smoke you can use the fog foreground shader.

4. Premium quality but hardest: volumetrics. Simple and advanced volumetric foreground shaders exist on model side. One or both of them allow perlin, fractal, or something, noise that can make streams and whisps like smoke. These are hard to use, make long render times, and need repeated trial and error to tune the effect. Also they work best when the scene and objects have realistic units and sizes and all the units are the same (world, object, all feet or all meters...). An object that is really 8 feet tall should be modeled as 8 "TS" feet tall, not 8 points or inches.

To combine foreground shaders you would have to make more than one picture and Paint Shop them together.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 08 Nov 2009, 18:05

It lack dark shadow from the objects to the ground. that can help to understand more the details. Maybe because you use only map shadow(?). combine map shadow and ray shadow can do a realistic scene. Map for diffuse shadow and ray for dark shadow from the sunrise. Map light need to be a little blue (simulate the color of the sky) and ray light need to be a little yellow or orange (it depend of the hour). For the sun use several infinite light (3 or 4) with a little different rotation (about 0.1 degree between each light) to simulate a very little smooth edge for the dark shadow from the sun. Setting of the light can enhance X10 the quality of your scene.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 08 Nov 2009, 21:36

You can see here how shadow is important:

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 08 Nov 2009, 21:39

I love shadows, for me it's what really gives the 3D perception, besides perspective of course!
But I don't know what is happening, and I even didn't understand what you said before... what is map shadow? explain please.

Thanks

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 08 Nov 2009, 23:38

marcel wrote:You can see here how shadow is important:

Absolutely priceless!!!!!!!

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 08 Nov 2009, 23:44

leonregis wrote: But I don't know what is happening, and I even didn't understand what you said before... what is map shadow? explain please.

right click (red circle on top) to open the setting of shadow. On shadow type, choose ray or map. The others setting are for map shadow only. Map size and quality affect the render (balance between quality and time to render). For a best image choose size 2000 and quality hight.
now you can do the shadow:
Use two parrallel infinity light. One orange (color of the sun) with ray shadow and one blue (or color of the sky) with map shadow. why?
to color the shadow. The color of the shadow is the complementary color of the light. The areas illuminated of the objects receive both colors that mix. This mixture is neutral as a white light. But the shadow map and ray are different and do not overlap exactly. The edges are colored. If the light "ray" is more intense than the light "map", the shadow will have the complementary color of light "ray". The light of the sun is orange then the shadow will be blue.
now you can setting the intensity and the color of "ray" light and "map" light then choose the sharpness for the map to smooth the shadow. Last step: do another infinity light (with neutral color) with map shadow and low sharpness to simulate a global illumination. This light need to have the same direction than the view of the cam and a low intensity.
All that seem complex to explain but when you understand that, you can do good render with only 3 lights and the render is very fast. I use that kind of light for animation and save a lot of time.

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 08 Nov 2009, 23:56

leonregis wrote:Thanks Tahnoak your comment is one of the most helpful for the scene...
1) You're right... fixed
2) Adjusted the scele
3) You are right, maybe I need to create some objects that represents other nations involved, but for composition 1 I'll keep the flag...
4) I don't know but is strange, for some reason I think that the light aren't casting shadows, I'm using Noon Light of the library, I just modified the angle and the color a little.
5) I didn't understand it completely, I soiled it a little in my last pic, do you saw?

I really appreciate this comment, thank you very much!
---
Finis your comment also is great and really improved the scene, thank you.

I make the pole less thick and I agree with you that it looks like a toy before, but I was not sure if was the flag. I create a low-poly depot, where the flag now stay.
The DOF is to strong, I agree. Now I make it a little more smooth, and how can I make something like fog/smoke... to looks like a low mist?
Will work on more objects for the next composition.
---------------------------
Ok I had the opportunity to work slowly this weekend, I fixed some problems and put some improvements that Tahnoak and Finis suggested, thanks again, now I'll work in the final details... like the sky and some foot prints and hand prints, I did some tests with it and the hand prints is almost invisible so I don't think that I'll add it, but the footprints are on the way...

As I said before, I create a low-poly depot (Finis suggestion), an broke vehicle, wire and barricades (Both Breech suggestion), worked on the scale ( Tahnoak and Finis suggst).

Tons of suggest are always welcome

You are quite welcome. I feel bad when I don't have the time to give a lot of feedback on people's work.

Definitely better contrast between the butt of the rifle and the dirt. I would say do the same thing to the helmet. It stands out as too green against the foxhole that it is perched along.

Good idea putting the flag with the outpost and I think some low fog would be a good idea too.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 09 Nov 2009, 00:08

Thanks Tahnoak... just to understand. You think that the dirt on the weapon and the helmet are too dark compared with the ground? Or that the Helmet is too green.

Sorry...

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 09 Nov 2009, 00:25

Rifle and ground look good. The helmet is too green compared to the dirt. I can see the red, which I assume is to symbolize blood but there should also be some dirt shading on it as well.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 09 Nov 2009, 01:21

Thanks Marcel, I'm sure that it will help... will give it a try soon.
Thanoak you mean something like this?

Maybe I have exaggerated...

Thanks
Cya

tahnoak · Post by **tahnoak** » 09 Nov 2009, 02:23

leonregis wrote:Thanks Marcel, I'm sure that it will help... will give it a try soon.
Thanoak you mean something like this?

Maybe I have exaggerated...

Thanks
Cya

Yes, that is perfect because there is no way a bloody helmet is still going to be intact

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 16 Feb 2010, 02:49

Going to revisit it and really finish. All phrases have a try in the begin:
Pick some high res textures for the dirt
Fix the dirt
Put a good sky there
Add a fog there
Scale some objects and even change some positions...
Shadows

It's pretty much it, let's see if I can do that to finally finish it.

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