United3dArtists Archive

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 27 Jul 2018, 23:07

Here is my trinny!

I've had this little guy planned for about a year and a half. I've iterated his design with the drawings of my brother more than half a dozen times. And now we are putting him into 3D, out of need. We need a mascot, we need a character to sell us, put our message out there.

The Beauty.

And, I have discovered something beautiful, sculpting and modeling tools go hand in hand in Bforartists/Blender. I never knew how comfortable it is. This guy is practically ready to animate already, and I could sculpt him while building him.

PS. I've recorded the process.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 28 Jul 2018, 20:01

I like your character!
I see that you decided to place the eyes further down than shown on some of your designs. The mouth will be smaller where you chose the eye placement.
Will your hands be a problem when they have to close?
What tools did you use in Blender?
Thanks for sharing!!!

trueBlue · Post by **trueBlue** » 28 Jul 2018, 20:15

I do too!
Reminds me of Casper from my childhood days.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... heHOsvncod

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 30 Jul 2018, 09:48

very nice looking and seems original, which is not easy these days!

well done sir

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 30 Jul 2018, 20:08

Thanks guys.

I'm still working on proportions.

I've got his mouth done now and most of the topology ok for rigging now.
The mouth and eyes.. I have a feeling those will be the hardest - especially getting them to Unreal Engine4 with the 4-8 influence limit.

I'll first try with the 4 limit first, so I can get hair going.

Hands will have a lot of corrective shapes to work, but shouldn't be a huge problem.

Now.. for a query...

Bigger or smaller body?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 31 Jul 2018, 16:25

Ok,little update. Tuned his face, tested loops and some small shapes. Now he's ready to rig.

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 01 Aug 2018, 08:42

ready to rig and roll :)
isnt his mouth too high? (not sure)

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 04 Aug 2018, 17:26

My concept artist, my brother, wanted the mouth high. Not sure about it yet.. but he does look cute.

I have been spending the past couple of days perfecting my rigging skills in Bforartists/Blender to Unreal Engine... as.. they don't always transfer correctly.

Tasks I've tested and managed to get going:
- Created python script for quick Shadow Rig creation
- Refined baking and shadow rig workflow to Unreal Engine
- Tested Bone scale deformation in UE from Blender/Bforartists - and mapped the correct workflows
- Tested a SplinIK rig and export to UE
- Tested a bone based "Lattice" rig system - and mapped the correct workflow system

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 11 Aug 2018, 16:53

I have gone ahead with rigging - it's looking terrifying but it's fun. Some thing are working already.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 Aug 2018, 17:30

I like the look of the character but there are many similar characters. So, if it is to be a logo or mascot for your brand ... something more distinctive or different.

The head seems to have innumerable bones. It is like mesh edges where converted to bones. Otherwise as well it seems like an "atomic fly swatter", overkill, too complicated. Especially for the simple shape of this character. That's a question not critique: Why so complicated? What is gained to be worth so much effort?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 13 Aug 2018, 16:16

Finis wrote: 11 Aug 2018, 17:30 I like the look of the character but there are many similar characters. So, if it is to be a logo or mascot for your brand ... something more distinctive or different.

Yeah.. it has been a tricky design process. A lot of people have mentioned he looks like a "Marshmellow Man" or the child of "Michillen". Though, for arguement sake, having an ambiguous character are more successful at creating empathy with the audience when it comes to story - because more people could identify with him more about the story than the actual character. This is the lead goal. The other secondary charcters for the branding half designed are a lot more characteristic in form. His personality should be quite defined with animation though.

Finis wrote: 11 Aug 2018, 17:30 The head seems to have innumerable bones. It is like mesh edges where converted to bones. Otherwise as well it seems like an "atomic fly swatter", overkill, too complicated. Especially for the simple shape of this character. That's a question not critique: Why so complicated? What is gained to be worth so much effort?

It's complicated because I won't/can't use morph shapes to get the expressions - and the expressions are very cartoony, squash, stretch, deform all over the place. I need a system that can push and pull deformer bones while somehow retaining some original shape design and volume. I also need a system that can give me "shape" like editing, or "sculpting", with a "lattice" all without sculpting, using a lattice or using shapes. I gain a rig that is light on the machine (less drivers, less vertex deformations) and compatible with realtime fur in Unreal Engine through Gfur and FBX export to render in realtime.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Aug 2018, 20:00

Makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. When you have some animations done could you show them and tell how this rig/system/method is better for it? Like "this rig has X which it better for this expression because ..."

Fur? Will he have fur?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 24 Aug 2018, 16:02

Done some updates.

TL:DR
I changed plans.

I have the majority of the mouth working. It is easy to get demotivated with so many bones - but "chunking" the tasks helps. I know the hard work will pay off with a very dynamic character.

PS. I found a fix for Animation layers in Blender, finally. NLA animation now works like it should.

Blog Post 1

Blog Post 2

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 25 Aug 2018, 11:33

Well to be honest I dont know why you are doing it that way?
Am I missing something????
What I would have done..?
Use a biped rig..a normal one !
Make the movements of the face with morphtargets!
Very easy to do ie in Poser!
You have all the necessary dials.. and if you use the standard bones Poser - Daz setup even use software like mimic Pro for perfect lip sync!
Daz even allows you to control your morphtargets with a joystick like feature!
Why doesnt it work that way in Unreal even with fur???
Normally it should!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 25 Aug 2018, 17:10

Many people have asked why this way. I can't argue that there are better methods. But there are very specific reasons why not to.

Here are the reasons:
1. Technical Limits for new tech. I can't use morph targets as the addon Gfur is limited with morph target support. Gfur is an addon that gives me realtime fur, so I can spit out a high quality character with fur without the render cost for quick production turn around, viral videos, and weekly animations. The end goal is production cost which requires a bit more pre-production which pays in the long run.
2. Third-Party compatibility. I have to export everything to Unreal Engine 4, meaning I can only export what is compatible with FBX. Meaning, many constraints don't export, lattices don't export, scale exports incorrectly due to UE only being "Local " with scale, etc. I use a shadow rig constrained to a deformer rig to work around that for that. UE has a 150 deformer bone limit with 8 vertex per influence.. so having smaller bones influencing areas that incluence other bones works around that. Less bones on the same vertex, same flexibility. This also is cheap on performance, both in Blender and UE.
3. Non-Destructive Flexibility. I need the same flexibility as a lattice, morph shapes and fine animation "drawing" control that exports nicely and is non-destructure - BUT without using all those features to keep it compatible with UE and the Gfur addon. If I edit the mesh, the shapes and poses would be destroyed and I'll need to rebuild hundreds of shapes again - with blendmorphs. This is expensive and time consuming if I want to rebuild the rig on another character or do any changes to the mesh. With this rig, any pose and shape I build with the flexible rig will be non-destructive and have potential to transfer (with animation libraries) to other characters and allow me to change the mesh. I'm building once for hopefully many characters and non-destructively.
4. Performance.. morphs are baked in stone and require heavy vertex evaluations all the time, plus drivers to drive them all which are harder to program (requires some code) and harder to setup (specially in Blender, and for the same control and effect I'd need hundreds to setup and then minimalize to a few user friendly controls with fancy code hacks), and creating drivers to make them all really hogs the performance of Blender. I could get 30fps out of this rig with opendubdiv and very few drivers - but with the same morph based drive rig I'd drop to 15-20 fps. I did this once in an easier way through nodal programming using Animation nodes, but that still was a performance hog, up to 10-15fps. Believe it or not, creating hundreds of drivers onto hundreds of shapes is about the same or more time to do than this rig setup.

So there you go.. This is experimental, yes. Not a lot of people do it. It's not conventional. But it's built with purpose with a lot of justifiable reasons.

I want fur. I want realtime. I want Unreal Engine. I want non-destructive animation controls. I want cartoon squash and stretch, and I want it animated quickly and exporting quickly to render quickly. Because I want weekly animations. And I want many characters with similar rigs, to have my animators not have to re-learn controls and have animation cross compatible and export to a high quality realtime render engine.

And.. I didn't want to auto-build the rig because I want to understand how to make it work properly so if an auto-rig breaks, I know how to fix it.

This is why I chose not to use blendmorphs/shapes and make this bone rig work.

Hope that makes sense! And yes, it is a crazy ambition, but so far quite rewarding.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 28 Aug 2018, 17:50

# The Update
I am this close to getting this rig going. I have been rather mellow with the way work has been the past few months, but I have been using it as fuel to move forward and make a plan - a sale campaign. This character is part of it, and also useful for the portfolio. I have been recording my work with this guy and will release some videos on him. Check back and maybe I'll have it published!

I feel I need to build rigging body parts to join together later for future characters, build rigs like Lego blocks. This is taking too long - and Autoriggers never do what I want them to really do. I imagine myself so frustrated one day that I will practically write my own autoriggers.

# The Progress

- Mouth is now fully deformable Jaw Ik is working like a charm, works with head Squash/stretch/bend and shape free *(meaning it's non-destructive on the mesh).*
- Lips are now SplineIK and also squash and stretch relatively al right. *Still missing Zip locks and Curl.*
- Cheeks inflate and have controls that work nicely Eyes have SplineIK
- Mouth has asymmetrical offset too
- Eyes can blink and right now squash and stretch relatively ok. *Offset on the eyes is still missing though.*
- Eyeballs now squash and flatten, also has auto lookat eyelid offset.
- Face now has proper squash and stretch ribs for volume preservation through bones.

# The Roadblocks
I forgot how Blender doesn't give clear definition or control of "Global" and "Local" transforms of bone constraints and hierarchy. So I had to work around many constraints setup incorrectly with "World" to new "Local" proxy constraint bones. That took some time to do - I had the whole head working; but when rotating the neck, it all broke spectacularly.
I have a dependency loop that has undo and reset lagging - with the curves controlled by the bones then bones constrained by SplineIK to the curve. This isn't a technical loop, but Blender is thinking that it is. Hopefully in 2.8 this won't be a thing.
The eye had a lot of troubles when I tried to get it squashing and stretching. Ultimately I had to try mimic the mouth.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 29 Aug 2018, 12:50

Yup I understand that you cant use morph targets in the final!
But why not set up the character with the bones attached and animate with morphs..yet let the animation transform with the bones in final?

Wouldnt that be much easier???

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 29 Aug 2018, 15:02

Track the bone transformations to blendshapes? Then export the bones?
Hmm... if I use any blendshape, change the mesh vertex count, then it will break the vertex order. I'm not in Softimage but Blender unfortunately, so to keep things non-destructive I think I'll avoid them. In softimage this would have been a piece a cake as all modeling and rigging is very much non-destructive. Gosh I miss that... I could use morphs for corrective shapes, possibly.

I'm not clear how it might work.

Method 1 (traditional method)
-Create morph shapes with the displaced vertex in shape library
-Create deformer bone constraints to nulls on hooks or hook bones to vertices
-Create controller bone drivers to morphs so I can animate the shapes in pose mode
-Bake hooked deformer bones to animation
-Export baked bones
-Edit the vertex count of the mesh = break all shapes, repeat first step and second step

Method 2. (method I'm working on)
-Create bone rig with lot's of shape like control
-Constrain shadow deformer rig to controller bone rig
-Bake animation to deformer bone rig
-Export baked bones
-Edit the vertex count of the mesh = only minor fixes to deformer weights

I've never tried hooking bones to vertices, I wonder if it would loop.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 29 Aug 2018, 17:36

Too bad software hasn't conceptualized muscles in movement. It would be more like natural motions.

Never heard anyone tell me I have nice bones in my smile.

Maybe someday software will catch up with nature.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 30 Aug 2018, 20:04

Why change order???? Why change polycount???
Just move the vertices...and use that as a morph target!!!!
Keep the bones inside and move them.passiv!
It should work!!!!!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 30 Aug 2018, 21:45

RAYMAN wrote: 30 Aug 2018, 20:04 Why change order???? Why change polycount???
Just move the vertices...and use that as a morph target!!!!
Keep the bones inside and move them.passiv!
It should work!!!!!

Because I need the rig to adapt to new characters with completely different topologies. Build once, use multiple times.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 30 Aug 2018, 21:45

# The Update
I have finally got the lattice system working. After some thought, I realized the null points of the rig don't need the ribs to work on weighting - so I will remove all the ribs. They were fun to build, but the normal focused bone null control is more than enough. WOO! Less work, less setting up, same flexibility.

# The Progress

- Eyes now have correct offset
- Eyes deform and areas around deform with head squash/stretch
- All weird offsets are fixed. *Just don't use CHild Of constraints, they are really a big pain in the butt*
- Eyeball proxy now offsets and displaces correctly for eye mesh
- General head shape is now minimalized to not need the internodal deformer ribs - full rib system is working fine.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 04 Sep 2018, 17:11

Cool, you CAN embed gifs!?

I'm shimmying my fast progress on the body now. Head is done.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 05 Sep 2018, 03:28

Ahh, art at work.
Love it!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 06 Sep 2018, 14:59

Here is a little update on the arm.

Arm Functions:
- Squash and Stretch
- Volume Lengthenening
- Bend
- Elbow offset
- IK shoulder
- IK/FK wrist
- FK toggle for forearm/upperarm

Hand Functions
- IK/FK fingers
- Individual finger curl control + offset
- All finger curl control + offset

I also have the viewport IK/FK toggles very much working nicely.

I'm still not sure what other feature I should add to the hand, the constraints in Blender are very easy with offset control. Rig still is working at 30+ FPS, so.. so far so good.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 07 Sep 2018, 22:48

"When you see the soul of a rig"
Only you will be the one that knows how controllers really do their magic. If only Animators knew!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 10 Sep 2018, 16:18

I have finally finished up my rig enough to start weighting. I have found and squashed a number of bugs, but in concept it is working. My only concern now is the 8 influences per vertex limit, or for fur, the full on 4 limit..

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 13 Sep 2018, 00:18

What have I done!?
Have I created a monster!? I don't know, but this monster of a robot creature excites me. In a good - innocent - happy way.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 18 Sep 2018, 21:29

I was stuck quite a bit trying to get a good wrist and forearm twist. IK upvectors weren't cutting it. I couldn't offset (without drivers) the IK pole. Nore could I have proper rotation constraints.. it seems Euler is just.. a concept and all bone rotaiton is ultimately in Quaternian. Local also isn't really a thing, as rotations still work globally - meaning on elbow bend and shoulder bend, I was getting terrible gimbal lock and weird offsets on rotation.

This is one thing in the Blender core that I am nooo fan of. Softimage defines and reads out and controls Global and Local matrices as they are, as they should be, fully controllable, seperate, agnostic, and as they are, local according to bone/object axis origin, global to world center. In Blender there is no clear definition of one or the other. You can't control Global then Local with unique transform modes, and you can't drive one or the other properly. Things inherit Global/Local matrice control without any UI feedback nor definitive values whatsoever. You think you move in local, rotate a bone origin in local, then discover that the rotation gimbal is set to a global quaternian or euler that causes a gimbal lock.

So.. I had to work around.. and I found that nature has the solutions, and then proceeded to make a double forearm bone to create the twist. It worked. I should have done it this way since forever. So happy to now know! It also could work in other software.

Dragneye · Post by **Dragneye** » 19 Sep 2018, 20:43

That's an interesting thought. Two bones instead of one.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 31 Oct 2018, 21:54

I have had a rough month this month hustling without much success, and today I sat down and started up my Trinny character rigging again. I managed to make my UE compatible eye finally. It deforms and looks around and keeps scale preservation all without a problem - with squash and stretch if I need it - to a degree. It's nice to be good at something again.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 01 Nov 2018, 18:15

Ok! He's poseable finally. Just need to iron out some kinks on his skin, face, and make teeth, eyebrows and tongue.

Oh.. and start the bug squashing of the interpobility with Unreal Engine for realtime fur..

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Nov 2018, 23:53

Yeah, yeah. But can he sing and dance? Wait, he can sing and dance!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 03 Nov 2018, 00:58

I started facial tests today, and got his eyebrows and teeth sorted. I've been going through each expression on his character sheet to try make the expressions. If they work, then I'm good.
Only thing left to do is the tongue and also.... figure out the expression limits. I am not sure I should limit the controls, or just leave it to the animator till he breaks it. I also have to make the animation controls a little more user friendly and with a good hide/show system.
I'm a little nervous, I haven't got the shadow rig working just yet and the idea is that it should all export to UE - but up till this stage I haven't tested it.

I can't wait for Eevee with atleast a years maturity....

I need a holiday. It's weird I feel more exhausted not having enough paying work to get out of debt and pay bills than when I'm overworked with many contracts doing work like this.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 05 Nov 2018, 17:19

Yeah the bills..I know!
But....there are ways to get money through 3d without contracted work!
I think Im like an old record..always jumps back....!
Make parts for Kitbashing and sell them on Gumroad!!!!
You only have to make them once..and can get quite a bit back...!
Look at the pieces here...just a pointer....www.kitbash3d.com

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 05 Nov 2018, 20:48

Love the emotes on the little fellow.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 07 Nov 2018, 14:31

RAYMAN wrote: 05 Nov 2018, 17:19 Yeah the bills..I know!
But....there are ways to get money through 3d without contracted work!
I think Im like an old record..always jumps back....!
Make parts for Kitbashing and sell them on Gumroad!!!!
You only have to make them once..and can get quite a bit back...!
Look at the pieces here...just a pointer....www.kitbash3d.com

Visited the site. How does it work? Did you make this site?

Yeah, been thinking about sales. I need immediate work first, but yes, sales would be a great investment.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 07 Nov 2018, 14:35

He's alive!

Still have a lot of bugs to fix.. like... amputate one arm that broke, mirror it again - fix finger geometry - fix eye socket and controls - fix deflating eye loop - and more.

clintonman · Post by **clintonman** » 07 Nov 2018, 15:22

I love watching your progress on this little guy.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 09 Nov 2018, 18:32

Hi ! Nope! Im pretty much in the artstation forums now and some time ago stumbled across articles from people in the industry including the makers of Star wars and Blade runner who used it in the film! Its an emerging market! Kitbashing as such isnt new..it comes from plastic kit modeling but its a good idea! Im not related to that site at all just on the fence watching! They have a free test set I think parts of victorian and there is a contest going on until 2019 so the have a sampler of futuristic out now too!!!
They are looking for modelers! This is a growing site there!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 29 Nov 2018, 21:16

RAYMAN wrote: 09 Nov 2018, 18:32 Hi ! Nope! Im pretty much in the artstation forums now and some time ago stumbled across articles from people in the industry including the makers of Star wars and Blade runner who used it in the film! Its an emerging market! Kitbashing as such isnt new..it comes from plastic kit modeling but its a good idea! Im not related to that site at all just on the fence watching! They have a free test set I think parts of victorian and there is a contest going on until 2019 so the have a sampler of futuristic out now too!!!
They are looking for modelers! This is a growing site there!

Ah right. Good idea. I saw a video on AI and proceduralism, I also think that will be really handy to learn/use. I wouldn't need libraries, but build them (then sell them). Hue hue, my new dark evil plan.

Ok, here is a random video with a DNB mix I made as I ramble over my experimentation on the rigging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 01 Dec 2018, 21:29

Wow cool thanks for sharing! Greetings Peter

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