United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 18 Jan 2013, 16:46

Challenge thread: vi ... =66&t=3858

I probably won't have time to finish but I'll try to do a hobbit house based on this: image

I'll try for a GI render and so for both my time and render time my scene will be simpler.

I already found that Daz's interface to 3Delight's GI is not well developed so I'll try Bryce 7's "true ambiance" render option. These tests show that color is bounced with the TA render. I found that setting 48 bit dithering helps with the graininess. These took about 1.5 minutes to render and the graininess should be ok with textures on the objects.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Jan 2013, 00:58

Trouble getting enough light to bounce. The interior is too dark. There is an option called Boost Light but that does not make it bright enough. The graininess is worse in dark areas. There is a distinct line between bright and dark at the peak of the ceiling. Little light is bouncing to the wall on the right.

Modeled in Hexagon. Rendered in Bryce.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 19 Jan 2013, 01:33

Try a radial light.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Jan 2013, 05:44

Yeah, I can put some lights to brighten it up. It the right places it will still look right. Chose a different solution though: Kerkythea. It did a good job and I only have a hour's experience with it. Kerkythea could be training for Thea. If I can ever try 3D as a job (everyone wants to be Prodigy) then I'll follow Rayman's advice get that.

This was rendered with Kerkythea in a few seconds. I'll have to learn to do textures.

There is something wrong with the geometry on the arches. Probably to do with how I exported from Hexagon or imported it. Need to learn how to transfer models correctly.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 19 Jan 2013, 17:09

Looks like the arch bends at those specific angles where the arch makes it curve (arc). (probably where it connects to the extended ceiling)

Might try welding it or seeing if the bend has geometry that is too close together resulting in a crease.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 19 Jan 2013, 17:57

Kerkythea triangulates imported obj meshes. I think the triangulation produces the "webs" around the details on the arches. I'll give the objects more polys in Hexagon and triangulate the export version there. Then I can see the triangulated geometry first. What if KT insists on triangulating a model that is already triangulated? There is probably an import control panel somewhere.

The "seam" on the ceiling in the Bryce render is an edge in the simple geometry.

KT rendered the 700K poly Greek dining hall model with a spot light and an omnilight in 7 minutes so I'm not that concerned with polys now.

How to get a parallel light in KT? Have to read documentation.

I'm still looking for a modeling program preferably in a full service program like TS. Try Blender sometime. Hexagon has some good features but I don't think it is the modeler for me. Great for some things though. Its curves and curve based object placement should do Elegant Bridge where I had trouble with TS.

Work time. Maybe do more of this tonight.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Jan 2013, 03:32

I got Kerkythea from http://www.kerkythea.net" . That's the official place and legal to get it from there right?

Trying to learn to render with it. I get a bright arc at the front of the arched ceiling and a bright area on the floor. The model has no faces or edges that correspond to the bright areas. The floor and the arched ceiling are different objects but the problem appears on both. Any ideas about why this happens?

It also happened with a subdivided version. This happens with GI methods photon mapping + final gather and diffuse interreflection but not others and not with raytracing only.

Edit: Problem fixed. I see the earlier KT test had no bright area. That was transferred as obj but this last one was with 3ds. That didn't distort the geometry but caused this new problem. I'll work on the geometry distortion of the arch details with obj transfer.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Jan 2013, 01:47

I remodeled the shapes with more polys and they triangulate without artifacts now. Also learned how to export/import obj to Kerkythea efficiently and tried simple texturing. Have to get the free textures for it and use images too. Found the tone mapping to brighten it up.

Green floor and colored beams to test color bleeding.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Jan 2013, 04:31

I getting frustrated with texturing or UV's. I did UV's in Hexagon and the checkered texture looked fine there. In Kerkythea a floral cloth pattern for testing was distorted. I tried cylindrical UV on the ceiling and unwrapping it and both were distorted in K. The model was exported from Hexagon as obj.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 23 Jan 2013, 16:52

Might need some more segmentation on the roof.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 23 Jan 2013, 17:10

Hmm... I've had trouble with UV's and export in various softwares. Sometimes freezing the object before exporting helps with UV export, as some programs remember or have UV controls and thus you need to bake it onto the object before export. I don't know the software you're using, but maybe?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 23 Jan 2013, 17:54

Draise: Thanks. Hexagon (modeler) and Kerkythea (renderer). What is "freezing"?

James: Thanks. Yeah, there are ploygons/flat surfaces visible on the ceiling arch. I'll probably use a Kerkythea smoothing feature on that object. Else SDS etc.

I brought the obj into TS 7.6 and gave it a cylindrical UV. That worked well in Kerkythea. The geometry was smoothed but the TS obj exporter has controls to change that.

I want to use non-TS tools, to learn them, until I have a working non-TS tool kit. Then I'll use TS again too. Since I've determined that Hexagon is not the main modeler for me there is no reason to stick with it so I'll do UV's in TS for this project. It is Kerkythea that I'm learning about now anyway.

As I'll be exploring Blender next with its notorious learning curve so I might not be in any challenges for a while.

Here is the ceiling with UV's from TS rendered in Kerkythea. It will get a stucco texture for the final image.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 23 Jan 2013, 18:24

Freezing: baking history, flattening history ... hmm.. had a quick look for some clues on google, but couldn't find much on Hexagon.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 25 Jan 2013, 21:07

Ah, that history is "dynamic geometry" in Hexagon. It can be forgotten by clicking the lightning bolt symbol in that part of the screen.

Well, this non-TS software adventure is about finding new tools and learning. Not all things learned are pleasant. Learned:
-- Hexagon is not useful for UV mapping and doesn't do UV automatically like TS. So, texturing things made in Hexagon is difficult.
-- Hexagon has some features where it can be a specialty tool for me.
-- Hexagon is not good for modeling scenes like in TS but is meant for single or few objects (clothes for DAZ etc.)
-- Using an all purpose program like TS is much easier and more productive that moving things between programs.

Further attempts to model in Hexagon, UV in TS, and render in Kerkythea have improved the result but also shown that I'm wasting time and effort modeling in Hexagon. So, lacking another modeler to try, I'll return to TS to do non-render things for this project and render in Kerkythea.

No interesting images at this point.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Jan 2013, 00:12

Here is one with wood and floor materials I made from images in Kerkythea. Used K's stucco on walls. I found that the measurements of the model need to be life size for GI so I'll scale it up and the light should look better. Trouble with Booleans on the end wall. K triangulates the holes in strange ways. Arches too far apart. The front part may have the bright band again.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 28 Jan 2013, 19:41

Now the model is life size. The box represents a 3.5 foot tall hobbit for scale. There is a green plane outside to simulate grass. The stucco wall texture looks better now.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 28 Jan 2013, 22:23

Looking beautiful and great Finis!

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 28 Jan 2013, 23:34

Need some 'God rays' coming through those holes.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Jan 2013, 03:56

Thanks!

Maybe I'll try some God rays after everything else is done. I'm new to Kerkythea so for now just basic texturing and rendering is a challenge.

The windows have glass now. I wanted some caustic effects from the glass but I didn't get that. Have to study the glass shaders. Simple glass will do for now. I do need to make it more visible with less than perfect transmission and a sheen as if a little dirty but how to do that is elusive.

I've been getting unexpected bright areas as if light is getting in where it shouldn't. This image has that on the upper right of the door frame. If I render, see a light leak, then render again it is different!

Next is the door, furniture, and an environment outside.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 31 Jan 2013, 22:06

Added door, table, chairs, and a bench. DAZ guys for scale. I'll put this furniture in my free stuff thread later. Not much time to make more stuff since it will take a while to texture everything. I think I'll make a small table with a potted plant and a cabinet. I'd like to add a rod on the arches with cloaks hanging on it.

Quick textures for now.

I found that higher quality render settings usually fix the light coming in where it shouldn't.

Advice or ideas on arranging furniture or anything else?

trueBlue · Post by **trueBlue** » 31 Jan 2013, 22:44

Looking good!
Less wood and perhaps candle lights?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Feb 2013, 05:22

Thanks! Just threw that texture on almost everything for a test. Real textures when I've modeled everything.

Arrgghh! Working in TS 7.6 model side and TS decided that parts of the arches and the curved legs of the furniture needed to be rotated 180 degrees. I don't know what caused it. Happened to items I hadn't touched. 72k polys so it isn't a big scene pushing some limits.

Almost done modeling. It has a table and chairs, small table, bench, rug, cabinet, cloaks (cloth rectangle but close enough), rod for cloaks, and a door knob. Now to make a flower pot and a Plant Studio flower. Probably make a terrain and a tree or two in Bryce. The Bryce terrain and sky might go to Kerkythea as an HDRI instead of objects.

Kerkythea renders fast. A couple of minutes for the tests so far. Rayman wrote that Thea is even faster.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Feb 2013, 00:27

There's the objects for this project. Needs candles but there is little time left. This is a render from TS with walls and arches invisible. Now to export to Kerkythea for textures.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 03 Feb 2013, 02:30

Me likey!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Feb 2013, 16:36

Me likey too. Texturing in Kerkythea is challenging. I'm reading the getting started manual now.

Hexagon's loop edge selection made modeling the bowl easier than TS. It is good for single or simple objects.

Rendering, in KT, is still unpredictably producing light where there shouldn't be any. Sometimes it leaks in where objects go through each other and sometimes an objects becomes luminous. As a KT beginner my first thought is that I've made mistakes but rendering it again without changing anything produces different results.

Any advice about the light leaks? Rayman? You know this program.

Here is a partially textured KT render. The windows have light around them where it shouldn't be.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Feb 2013, 00:22

After reading the manual and some KT forum threads I found that the light leaks come mostly from too few photons. I still don't know how to copy the material from one object to another other than to put it in a library. Have to find more docs and tuts or put them in a library.

Here is a quality render that took one hour. 5,000,000 photons and some increases in other settings.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 04 Feb 2013, 13:46

This really looks GOOD!

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 04 Feb 2013, 15:05

Wow, I think we have a winner here! Nice!

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 04 Feb 2013, 16:08

Exalent work there Finis, love it

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Feb 2013, 01:41

Thanks everyone.

Everything has textures now. The door rim and fixtures should be lighter. There is a pot near the purple flowers that is too dark too. I shrunk the stucco wall texture so it looked right close up but it is better rougher.

I set up a environment sphere (free from continuum skies) and sun. So far the results aren't better than the spot light. I'll learn about that later and return to the spot light and add a flat background image. This image is lit by the sky and sun set up. I tried it with just the sky and that gave it a soft light.

I'm having trouble getting the inside bright enough. Brightening with the tone mapping tools washes out the places where direct light shines on things. Like the floor near the door, those parts just turn solid white. The sky/background washes out too. I'll try to brighten it up by changing the sun angle so more floor gets direct light and use less tone mapping.

Ideas? Suggestions? I have to wrap this up soon. Too much neglecting the real world.

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 05 Feb 2013, 02:28

Maybe in Post, using photoshop or gimp, you can play with the contrast, or play with the gain of the shadow tones or midtones, or darken the light tone gain and then increase the gain of the whole image. I often do post in my renders, because it's quicker and avoids the frustration of a figuring out a shoddy render engine.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Feb 2013, 18:51

I tried Paint Shopping it. I still get the wash outs. Working on different parts (midtones, dark, light) like you said would do better. KT's tone mapping has several methods and some have 'light' and 'dark' sliders. Using them has done the best. Except ...

I was relying on just one light representing the Sun for all the light but in reality plenty of sky and reflected light comes in doors and windows. I used 'physical sky', a program generated simple sky, to cast some light from all directions and that worked for adding some general light. But, now the scene seems too bright deep in the room. While I wanted a less dramatic difference between light and dark, now there is little difference. It doesn't look like GI anymore. The weird part: Renders with just the spot (Sun) light now look different than before ... less GI looking. Compare the Spot Only render in this post with previous ones. I have no guess about why that happened.

At least the bright direct light areas aren't washed out now. It looks good except I want a little more light-dark difference and I am puzzled by the change in no sky renders.

There is a background image on a plane.

Here are renders with light from sky only, spot light only, both, with no tone mapping or brightening.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Feb 2013, 18:53

Here is the image with sky and spot light and tone mapped in KT to brighten dark areas.

There is a light leak near a chair foot. It looks like there is light coming from the back of the room and there is little difference between brightness at the front and deeper into the room. Render settings are for photon mapping plus final gather so it should be GI.

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 05 Feb 2013, 19:30

You could mask out those portions of the light.

IN CS3 Photoshop>Filter>Render

There are lighting effects.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Feb 2013, 20:33

I don't have Photo Shop. Paint Shop probably has something similar.

I think I found the source of the brightness back in the room. Something had to be different than before and I did move the back wall toward the front. Maybe that worked too well for brightening. Work on it later.

Edit: Moved the wall back and moved the camera back deeper into the room where it was before I moved the furniture forward and the darker areas were there as before. The picture is right. The earlier darker areas were deeper into the room. I scooted the furniture toward the windows and door and moved the back wall to make it brighter and guess what? I got what I asked for!

Now to tweak and make a finished picture.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Feb 2013, 17:49

Rendering a finished one now. Probably take a couple of hours.

Here are some detail views.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 06 Feb 2013, 18:30

Man this is looking good .
I think also we have a winner

jamesmc · Post by **jamesmc** » 06 Feb 2013, 18:32

Wow! That top render is vivid loveliness.

Glad it's coming together for you.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Feb 2013, 21:17

Here it is. I'll put it in the challenge thread tonight.

The detail renders earlier were straight out of KT. This one almost is. Just a little adjustment in Paint Shop.

The background photo is from http://www.cgtextures.com" called LandscapeMountains0078.

Title: Hobbit House
Software: Hexagon, trueSpace 7.6 model side, Kerkythea 2008 Echo, Paint Shop Pro 7
Render Time: 2.5 hours

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 16 Feb 2013, 02:54

This looks great Finis ! I havent seen this thread before because I´ve been busy the last few weeks with my work...
You seem to have gotten Kerkythea pretty sorted ! Looks awsome Finis !
Just something for the future..... also try to use the unbiased render method..... its a lot slower but gives you the most photorealistic results..
Peter

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 May 2013, 01:57

Thanks Rayman!

I haven't forgotten that I promised to put these objects in Free Stuff From Finis. I'm pretty busy now but I will get to it.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 02 May 2013, 11:17

I'm glad this thread was touched again which brought it back to my attention..., I have to say what a nice job you did with this project!

U3DA Challenge Jan. 2013 - Hobbit House

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