United3dArtists Archive

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 30 Oct 2009, 22:38

http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/s ... 893&page=6
You can post yours comments here.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 31 Oct 2009, 00:15

Now we have a date to when the site will be partially shutdown, also is good that he said about us

I hope that he'll be more active, I would like to be his friend, discuss about things and I like his vision of the world
About the last part I already knew, but is good hear that from Roman...

Cya

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 31 Oct 2009, 00:30

To Roman,

I firmly believe that the future of this Community can be very bright indeed, and the reason I say this is largely because we have free access to trueServe thanks to you making it available to us all on 06-01-2009, and as a Community Growth Tool, trueServe represents all we need to make this Community grow exponentially in the years ahead, with our own Community servers inter-connected worldwide.

As it is now, we have several online in the United States, one online so far in the United Kingdom, two about to come online in Germany and another about to come online in Brazil. All this has been the result of Community focus over the last few weeks, with related Community enthusiasm building momentum and driving us all to steady active collaborative development on related scripting and technical issues. We even overcame the final bug left in truePlay together as a result of all this.

The future of our Community use of shared space severs is also dependent of course to a large extent on whether the actual trueServe program will remain available to the world as a free download, whether at Microsoft's site, Caligari's site if they leave it online, or perhaps here.

If Microsoft keeps trueServe available for free download after the Caligari website/forum is taken down, just as they did with Creature House Expression after their acquisition of Creature House (and that free download is available even now at the Microsoft website all these years later), then the Community here will be able to assist entirely new Community Members to download trueServe and install it and add their own trueServer to the growing worldwide network of trueServers already beginning to be born.

On behalf of the Community here therefore, I am requesting that the trueServe program ( trueServe761B8G3.exe ) and it's manual ( trueServe_761_Manual.zip ) remain available for free download throughout 2010, and hopefully well beyond 2010.

If Microsoft decides they don't want to host the files for download, then please.... allow us, as your Community, your legacy, to host and distribute it ourselves freely.

You have had this vision of a global online collaborative community flourishing via the tools you have provided the world. Now, at long last, it is genuinely materializing all on it's own thanks to you. All we ask now is allow us to take it even farther than any of us imagined to date... make trueServe freely distributable by your Community long after the Caligari website goes offline. If it is, we will fulfill your vision fully at long last here together.

Thank you

- Mark

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 31 Oct 2009, 01:10

I guess this will be the official end of modeler and 6.6. I'm not really sure why it is being removed and not the standalone version, but I think it may be the lightworks license. I'm not really sure what leaving the standalone version on it's own will achieve, but I guess it isn't hurting anyone.

Oh well, truespace 7+ may have been a failure, but it is still my 3d app of choice. Even for users that prefer modeler/ 6.6 (like me) I would point out that there are still good reasons to use workspace, including: yafaray, froo's fluids importer (which you should all buy now if you haven't already

), the modeling tools and the physics simulations (which can be rendered modelside if I'm not mistaken).

There are also (obviously

) good reasons to still use modelside, and even this week there are still plugins being developed for it. I would grab it while you can, if you haven't already, I think it will have some legs yet. It also runs awesome on new hardware - getting a new pc has given 6.6/ modeler (we need a new name for this, how about 6.66?

) a new lease of life for me, no doubt.

Anyway, it was interesting to get some news, but really it's just business as usual for truespace fans.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 31 Oct 2009, 01:20

Benji wrote:6.6/ modeler (we need a new name for this, how about 6.66? )

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » 31 Oct 2009, 12:23

I wish 6.6/Modeler code could get acquired by Lightworks...

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 31 Oct 2009, 12:38

It does appear from Roman's comments that the issue with keeping modelside alive is LW.... it is a shame ...

Roman · Post by **Roman** » 02 Nov 2009, 22:34

Yes, Modelside is tighly integrated with Lightworks, Oh well:(

It is great to hear about new plug-ins and trueServe instalations. Forum here seems to be pretty active too. I promise to hang around here, hopefuly spending more time in the future.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 02 Nov 2009, 22:37

Thanks Roman, good to see you coming more here...

Cya

BooxieMalone · Post by **BooxieMalone** » 03 Nov 2009, 20:35

Hi Roman,

please understand, I fully respect anybody's decisions on his intellectual property. I usually wouldn't ask and especially not ask you, our patron, who generously gave us the subject of discussion here for free.

But reading about a tightly integration of Lightworks - for which obviously any further publishing has to be stopped - appears to me at first sight a licensing problem solely and that poses to me the typical non-programmers question:

Why not simply take out Lightworks and make VirtuaLight the standard? More than ever in consideration of dribble, which also was generously released free to the community by Simon lately.

Is there anything in tS looking after LW permanently, or are there any settings of LW unalterable necessary for Modelside to work? Or is it simply the problem, that the installer would have to be changed and compilated once again?

Thanks in advance - if you would'nt mind throwing some light on this.

Regards
-BM.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 03 Nov 2009, 21:41

Roman wrote:Yes, Modelside is tighly integrated with Lightworks, Oh well:(
It is great to hear about new plug-ins and trueServe instalations. Forum here seems to be pretty active too. I promise to hang around here, hopefuly spending more time in the future.

Integration of LW in TS were the highlight of the soft. Useful, effective but dangerous when the soft depends in part of another company. The gratuity can not be done unilaterally. If I understand correctly, when TS was for sale, Cali...sorry Microsoft must repay royalties to LW? and what about for 5 million software downloaded for free? I understand that Microsoft refuses to continue to allow downloading of TS in this case. But I do not know if it's reality. Caligari would make TS7 without the model side but no one understood why TS6.6 is abandoned. TS7 would change his name to become a new software with a plugin to import the old scenes of TS by respect for old users. We can imagine scenarios but who can predict the future to make the right choice?

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 03 Nov 2009, 23:38

Lightworks has teamed up with causticRT and already has a product for it. Oh, what could have been for truespace.......

Prodigy · Post by **Prodigy** » 04 Nov 2009, 02:09

There's something that i do not understand here.

there is another bright future ahead??

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 04 Nov 2009, 04:24

I'm not sure what you mean, are you referring to some other post in this thread?

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 04 Nov 2009, 09:01

I have the same question of Prodigy, by what Marcel and Roman said, seems that something is happening. Could someone make it clear?

Cya

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 04 Nov 2009, 09:07

Prodigy wrote:There's something that i do not understand here.

there is another bright future ahead??

Oh yeah Prodigy wins the Jackpot and spends the rest of his life on the green golfing.....
How does that sound to you Augusto ?
Boy if i only knew the correct numbers (scratches his head and falls back into his daydream......) ; P

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 04 Nov 2009, 09:25

I am not sure if it is the real problem but: if TS7/model side need some code from Lightwork to run then The owner of TS need to pay a license to Lightwork even for all free downloaded version (?). Model side without LW can't work (?). Since TS is free, Microsoft don't want to pay for nothing (?). The standalone workspace have not this problem. Maybe it is the only one witch can continu as a free download in the futur (?). Now what is the problem Microsoft-Lightwork? I don't know.
Only Roman can reply to all these "?" in my comment.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 04 Nov 2009, 12:49

I would imagine that a license for LightWorks was already paid by Caligari for a given period of time. We benefited by Caligari/Microsoft leaving the code up for us to download. Maybe it was a contract specifying a period of time.
Without Modeler the focus now should be making workSpace (trueSpace rosseta) easier to use.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 04 Nov 2009, 13:24

The really the unfortunate thing is that new users won't be able to use it, robbing ts of 90% of it's potential functionality. I doubt too many new users are going to want to purely use workspace (aside from the admittedly interesting shared space projects that are being developed). Workspace has some cool stuff, but it doesn't cut it as a solo 3d app imo, at least one that most people would recognise.

Really, workspace needed years more development (and a fully functioning renderer) to be equal to modeler.

I really think that this will begin the days of truespace as a necro app. It's a pity it wasn't offered to the fans in the same way blender was - I don't know what a lightworks license is worth, but you never know, they may have just let us use it for the free advertising.

Very disappointing, but as I said, this is just business as usual for truespace users. We really deserve better.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Nov 2009, 14:19

Benji wrote:I'm not sure what you mean, are you referring to some other post in this thread?

Prodigy is probably referring to Roman's statements in the Captain's Blog on the Caligari forum. "I myself am quite fired up about new possibilities, I know I keep saying that without much evidence but you just have to trust me

"

MS isn't going to do anything with model side so there's no point in wanting a no-lightworks version.

Roman isn't getting paid by MS to do nothing. His "new possibilities" may be something we will like. We won't know until the "something" is released.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 04 Nov 2009, 14:23

Finis is right, I just hope that Roman do something with the same creativity and vision he used on tS...

Prodigy · Post by **Prodigy** » 04 Nov 2009, 15:48

Lol

Ok guys, the point is the last bright future i saw was the close of caligari corp, 3 or 4 guys loosing their jobs, no more support or upgrades for truespace and vray (also chaosgroup is not interested to help or fix the plugin we paid) Collavoration (avatars) were not finished, the forum, we spent time and money on a really great software that has no real future.

So the point was, bright future for who? in the next decade? wait 10 years to see a real benefit to follow microsoft on its weird journey through the technology.. Microsoft has already other huge problems with vista, win7 and all seems this is not the end of the cool horizon of microsoft.

So, let's be honest.
i think microsoft has 0 intention to help us. or use our potential on something useful for us.

That's my POV.
Back to work! cya

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 04 Nov 2009, 16:10

I'm sure the "bright future" was Roman's bright future not ours. If we ever see any hint of trueSpace technology again it will probably be a communication device embedded in our brain cell.
Looking in my glass crystal ball for the future....oh wait that is broken in VRay...

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 04 Nov 2009, 16:59

Microsoft never intended to help anybody, just themselves... if they help someone in the process they destroyed it after or bought.

Metaphor time!

Our community is a planet and an huge and unstoppable earthquake started, now we can't make new buildings (new users) and most of the old ones already collapsed, we still have ones but since that we can't fix and repair them (new versions) we are fated to collapse too, just because we will hold on a little more (maybe between 1 to 7 years)

Cya

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:07

Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is just an oncoming train.

Prodigy · Post by **Prodigy** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:10

LOL!!

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:29

Well, we may not have Modeller long, but we still have a horse in the race!

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:35

So cheer up guys... we have hope after all..... see?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 04 Nov 2009, 18:16

spacekdet wrote:Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is just an oncoming train.

when we are at the edge of the cliff, go straight is not always the right solution.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 04 Nov 2009, 18:25

Ok, ok, lol, sorry folks, I got a little too inspired by Leon's comment that it is "Metaphor time!" hehehehe!!

Seriously though....

Yes, we all suffered too damn long through one "promise" after another dashed in the end under the guise of yet another "promise" taking on a supposedly new urgent priority, and we all know what came of all that in the end.

I invested a full year day and night 7 days a week full-time myself with zero pay trying to get the community to embrace what caligari was promising us all via trueServe, I devoured my bank account to cover mortgage and bills for that entire year with zero income accordingly, all based on those assurances you know of (and many which you do not know of) which all added up to become what appeared to be a "bright future for us all" accordingly. As for me, I see it as all just being a carrot dangled in front of a dog in the race, giving him something to go after, something he would never be permitted to actually obtain in the end of the race.

This dog has grown wiser though as a result. I don't have faith in anyone anymore, nor in any more dangled "promises" offered. What I do have faith in is us, in our capacity to turn this rubbish situation into a blessing by pulling together as a community to develop the potentials of shared space together, with each of us having the genuine potential of making substantial personal income from this effort, in spite of the way we have each been treated. I truly believe we can make trueServe serve us now regardless of any past or future "assurances" or "promises," and I am doing everything I possibly can to make that happen now as are several others here. It would be nice to have genuine support from MS or caligari, but I don't expect any at all, long hard experience has taught me to be far less trusting and far more self reliant.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:36

Really Well said 3DVD. Yes we can, but we have some limitations that was going to be solved before the crash. So I think that we don't need at all the Truespace Development (I want) but would be good enough see some development in Shared Spaces... or even make it opensource, or contract some of us (no me of course) to program the solutions that we want.

Cya

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 04 Nov 2009, 21:23

spacekdet wrote:Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is just an oncoming train.

or a rectal probe.... !!!!!

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 04 Nov 2009, 21:24

marcel wrote:when we are at the edge of the cliff, go straight is not always the right solution.

If you are a lemming it may not be right but it is the only solution....

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 05 Nov 2009, 03:11

noko · Post by **noko** » 05 Nov 2009, 10:25

Really there is an explosion of technology, software and hardware wise which opens the flood gates. Nvidia has API out now for ray tracing using GPU which one can use to build upon. ATI new GPU is extremely powerful, 1600 stream processors, DX11 capable, powerhouse. Nvidia is around the corner with Fermi (code name) for their newest GPU, it will have C++ capability. Basically a GPU that can do general processing as well. Intel and AMD will have 6+ core processors out next year. I have to say the future has never looked as interesting or as promissing, hopefully it will turn out good. The incredible increase in processing power, really exponential as time goes on has open up the doors to more real 3d environments, better physics, AI but more importantly a more natural human interface like speach to and from your computer, hand motion capture for sculting and the list goes on. All current developements in programs are already obsolete in a sort of way. Maya, Max3d, Old Lightwave (core holds some promise), Realsoft3d will be scraped in the near future, so tS or should I say Roman maybe in the end got a jump on things

.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 05 Nov 2009, 12:19

Really there is an explosion of technology, software and hardware wise which opens the flood gates.

I wouldn't be putting on my raincoat just yet. This explosion has been occurring for ten years, I imagine that there is a lot to be said and done before any self-respecting 3d app has to worry about being obsolete. CausticRT is really the only gpu renderer that I've seen that has real short to mid term promise of upsetting the quality rendering scene - and it is going to be expensive, and bonded to 3dsmax like a limpet.

Apart from this, Hypershot is the best real-time-sort-of app I've seen, and it still runs on the cpu. What a dinosaur.

Give it another five years and maybe then the real-time revolution will be rolling out madame guillotine, although by then gpu's might not exist either, especially if intel has it's way. Man, the future sucks.......

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 05 Nov 2009, 13:07

noko wrote:Really there is an explosion of technology, software and hardware wise which opens the flood gates.

...and don't forget the new intel processor core i9 !

noko · Post by **noko** » 05 Nov 2009, 18:56

Benji wrote:
Really there is an explosion of technology, software and hardware wise which opens the flood gates.
I wouldn't be putting on my raincoat just yet. This explosion has been occurring for ten years, I imagine that there is a lot to be said and done before any self-respecting 3d app has to worry about being obsolete. CausticRT is really the only gpu renderer that I've seen that has real short to mid term promise of upsetting the quality rendering scene - and it is going to be expensive, and bonded to 3dsmax like a limpet.

Apart from this, Hypershot is the best real-time-sort-of app I've seen, and it still runs on the cpu. What a dinosaur.

Give it another five years and maybe then the real-time revolution will be rolling out madame guillotine, although by then gpu's might not exist either, especially if intel has it's way. Man, the future sucks.......

Vray RT is looking really good and uses both GPU and CPU here is video which has link to a whole bunch of other videos showing off VRay RT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTNk8B6x ... re=related"

trueBlue · Post by **trueBlue** » 05 Nov 2009, 22:34

Looks like Roman's vision is here:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/realityserver.html"

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 05 Nov 2009, 22:40

Vray RT is looking really good and uses both GPU and CPU here is video which has link to a whole bunch of other videos showing off VRay RT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTNk8B6x" ... re=related

Yep, it does look good. But it's really just doing the same job as Fprime for lightwave, which is a cpu only option.......

I'm not denying that gpu renderering is good, just that it isn't going to suddenly render existing 3dapps or renderers worthless, if ever. There is also the developing unbiased scene to consider, which is growing. These renderers are slow, but can be rendered on cyber farms fairly affordably, and you don't need to buy expensive equipment. Online rendering may end up being the real gamechanger, we don't know yet.

I also think what Caligari had going with the pure dx9 renderer had a lot of potential, but it needed heaps more work to be a lightworks etc. replacement. Unfortunately, I don't think that was ever the plan.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 05 Nov 2009, 22:59

Looks like Roman's vision is here:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/realityserver.html"

This update does look really cool, but I'm afraid since the demise of shout3d, which had awesome potential back in the day, I'm still not convinced that this stuff has a place on the mainstream web. Videos of kids riding their bikes into trees on youtube has been devoured by the masses, along with social networking and WOW. Maybe web3d will finally get its turn, one day.

I do hope nvidia keep developing this, however they aren't exactly in the pole position tech wise that they were a few years ago.

To be honest, all I would like isn't some revolutionary 3d worlds type gamechanger, but the ability to create web pages that have the same visual capabilities of a AAA game. Just eye candy type stuff. I know this is doable somewhat with flash, but I would love to be able to set up my page and interactivity in Workspace or Darkbasic, for example, and publish it on the web.

I thought originally that this was what Caligari and MS were doing, but sadly not.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 06 Nov 2009, 00:15

I don't see any multiuser realtime interaction in these linked examples. Technology is interesting to a point, but where it doesn't facilitate human interaction it becomes boring rapidly.

I see the future as being a matter of the gaming industry falling into two distinct camps as a natural flow, one camp being the single server hub that draws it's income from satellite servers fees, and the other camp being MMO game engines which accomodate the needs of a vast world of business and communications clients who have zero interest in roleplaying but who seek to utilize the technology for business and social purposes and corporate communications.

trueServe, in my opinion, **if the avatar systems are effectively conquered,** has truly vast potential accordingly, especially given that it is free.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 06 Nov 2009, 00:23

Note that Sun Microsystems, one of the largest Corporations in the US has 50 percent of it's workforce meeting in shared spaces all day.

Here is a quote from their related site and the link:

On any given day, over 50% of Sun's workforce is remote. MPK20 is a virtual 3D environment built using the Project Wonderland Toolkit. In this 3D world, employees can accomplish their real work, share documents, and meet with colleagues using natural voice communication. Just like on Sun's physical Menlo Park campus, known as "MPK," inhabitants of the virtual MPK20 office building can work together in planned meetings, or can talk informally in unplanned encounters. Unlike the physical campus, however, in MPK20, the community can be built and maintained without the constraints of physical location.

http://research.sun.com/projects/mc/mpk20.html

Now stop and consider....

a company as large as Sun sees what Sun is doing and seeks their own similar multiuser online collaborative environments, and they receive a CD/DVD with truePlay on it and one scene you designed which they can immediately explore in first person navigation.... inside that scene is a speaking humanoid who explains that if the visitor clicks on the glowing sphere, they will be transported to a server online where they can fuilly explore this technology in person immediately and see there just how cheaply **YOU** can provide them with **YOUR OWN** licensed scripted interactive scene content to facilitate the solutions to their needs via the use of the free server software, free (and freely distributable) viewer, and Custom Content created specifically for their company and branded accordingly which you will provide for a one-time up front CHEAP fee. They can also meet you there in person as you design it around them in realtime.

Easy, EASY sales worldwide.

EDIT: In the above paragraph I should have made it clear that in that scenario you would ONLY be providing / distributing your own Licensed Content, and perhaps the freely distributable truePlay program, but NOT the trueServe server software nor trueSpace. As it is now we do not have distribution rights for trueSpace or trueServe, and it is unlikely that we will ever have that.

Only those who have downloaded trueServe (and also trueSpace) from the official distribution sources of Caligari's website (or Microsoft if they provide additional or substitute officially approved download points) may install trueServe legally. We cannot distribute trueServe or trueSpace at all.

That said, we are still able to install trueServe ourselves, and if we choose to charge others not only for related Content Usage Licenses, but for Portal Usage Fees Monthly on our own servers where we have a properly licensed properly downloaded (distributed) trueServe installation, that is entirely up to us.

noko · Post by **noko** » 06 Nov 2009, 00:52

That sounds very possible 3dvd, now obviously we can't sell tS or trueServe but what will we be selling? Environments, objects, ready made collaborative portals? Training and support? Will this be separate from tS and tServe downloads? I don't see how we can include either on a disk for sell, tPlay I do believe can be included. Just thinking how this will work.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 06 Nov 2009, 00:56

noko wrote:That sounds very possible 3dvd, now obviously we can't sell tS or trueServe but what will we be selling? Environments, objects, ready made collaborative portals? Training and support?

I would sell cutomized branded "Licensed Content," and depending on the financial capabilities of the prospective purchaser, that License could be a "one-time up front Content License purchase" or a "renewable annual content license fee."

Also, if MS refuses to keep trueServe available as a free download and doesn't permit us to distribute it, we would simply have to provide that content on our own servers (at ServerBeach perhaps) and charge accordingly.

Any additional "training and support" would incur an additional fee of course.

LeonRegis · Post by **LeonRegis** » 06 Nov 2009, 01:00

3dvisuals dude wrote:Also, if MS refuses to keep trueServe available as a free download and doesn't permit us to distribute it, we would simply have to provide that content on our own servers (at ServerBeach perhaps) and charge accordingly.

Any additional "training and support" would incur an additional fee of course.

Didn't understand

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 06 Nov 2009, 01:04

leonregis wrote:
3dvisuals dude wrote:Also, if MS refuses to keep trueServe available as a free download and doesn't permit us to distribute it, we would simply have to provide that content on our own servers (at ServerBeach perhaps) and charge accordingly.

Any additional "training and support" would incur an additional fee of course.
Didn't understand

As it is now, we are able to legally distribute truePlay, but not trueSpace and more importantly not trueServe.

If trueServe is not allowed to be freely distributable after MS removes the Caligari website where it can now be downloaded freely, and if MS doesn't place trueServe online at the MS site for free download, then we would be the last people (among 5 million or more downloads) to obtain trueServe and be able to use it to set up servers for use with truePlay or trueSpace.

If that is the case, we would have to charge for spaces on our licensed servers rather than help clients install trueServe on their own servers.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 06 Nov 2009, 04:53

I think it's very dangerous to be relying on MS/ Skelegari to keep trueplay alive and legal, but I hope it works out, the trueserve project is interesting. Unless I've missed something, we haven't really been told what the status of Caligari and truespace officially is, except that TS has been discontinued by MS (which was obviously BS).

I guess we were never really informed of the details of the relationship to begin with, except that it ultimately involved MS subjecting truespace and it's fans to prison sex.

If MS isn't interested in tS anymore, why don't they sell it? I see no reason not to, and it would be a nice thing to do for the fans that stuck by them for so long, especially now the retarded decision to dump modeler has occurred.

But then, since when have truespace fans (and paying customers) ever been the top priority? Okay, I think I may have answered my own question......epic

P.S. Has there ever been an app as rant-worthy as TS? I could go on all day.....

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 06 Nov 2009, 08:18

It's ok, fact is I wouldn't trust them to walk my dog, but I don't have a dog anyhow.

The cat is out of the hat on truePlay, it is already freely distributable, that can't be stopped now even if they wanted to.

As far as trueSpace and trueServe, sure they can kill the downloads and legal availability to new installs, but I doubt they will stop trueServe for a few reasons, one, it isn't tied to lightworks like trueSpace modelside is, and two, just as MS has kept Creature House Expression available to this day as a free download at MS all these years after they devoured Creature House, they would benefit a great deal from the sales leads they would gain from the questionnaires they attach to the free downloads, just as they still do for Creature House Expression at the Microsoft site.

But even if MS pulls the plug on all future trueServe downloads, there are still probably a million or more downloads of it that occured this year out of the estimated 5 million downloads from the same free downloads page for trueSpace. I figure 1 in 5 is likely, could be more.

Even so, if MS kills trueServe downloads, I and many others will simply set up our own servers running it and charge clients monthly for the portals with customized content branded for their business, and remain free to everyone who is there for pleasure and not to simply make a buck.

Then there is also advertising to consider... in-world advertising. If you have, for instance, a trueServer online with 5 businesses in it each with 5 portals, and those 25 portals collectively represent fairly steady traffic, you have a marketable advertising venue there as well for in-world Billboards or marquees.

Then there is the content sales, they can be monthly or one-time, it's up to each server host. Then there is maintenance options, also sellable as add-ons. Etc, Etc. (EDIT: I left out hosted EVENTS here earlier, but that is a huge source of potential income for these portals.)

They may seek to limit the spread of trueServe, but they cannot limit the spread of servers and portals serving it provided the install was obtained legally from the proper authoirized distribution point, ie: caligari... and mine was, as was another possible million more.

So I am not worried about their future moves, I am only hoping they keep it all alive for the sake of the Community here and it's future global growth. If they don't, we will still use what we can in the ways we can, and that is fine anyway.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Nov 2009, 16:04

Assuming that 3DVisuals Dude's assertion that there is money to be made with this type of software is correct (I think he may be right) some questions seem lost in the enthusiasm:

-- Why necro-ware as a foundation? Eventually trueServe will be incompatible with future hardware or operating systems.

-- Are there already systems to do this? If so, why would trueServe be competitive with them?

-- Aren't Second Life and online multiplayer games similar to this? If the market existed for trueServe business wouldn't some of those companies have already adapted their software to serve it?

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 06 Nov 2009, 20:55

Some photorealistic render with iray.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 07 Nov 2009, 00:48

Finis wrote:Assuming that 3DVisuals Dude's assertion that there is money to be made with this type of software is correct (I think he may be right) some questions seem lost in the enthusiasm:

Actually the questions aren't lost in my enthusiasm at all, they have been deeply considered and researched since February 2007 on my part, it's just time for others to catch up! lol

Finis wrote:-- Why necro-ware and a foundation? Eventually trueServe will be incompatible with future hardware or operating systems.

Whether Caligari becomes "necroware" is irrelevant in relation to what can now be done with those two vital parts (trueServe and truePlay) we already have.

As it is now, trueServe is marketable, if that were not true, Renderosity would not have paid to have their Caligari truePlay portal sustained after their scheduled one day event. And that was with cone avatars, lol. We just need to improve the avatar systems a little and it is indeed very marketable.

trueServe will not be incompatible with future hardware for another three years or more when DX9 is retired. That won't happen fast at all.

Finis wrote:-- Are there already systems to do this? If so, why would trueServe be competitive with them?

"..to do this?" No.

If you had been at the many online workshops we held in Caligari truePlaces back in 2007 which went into great depth about the advantages of trueServe marketability worldwide versus many "false competitors" such as SecondLife and ActiveWorlds you would know why many of us were so enthusiastic even then, but the marketability has improved now, not declined. For instance, back then trueServe was only leased annually and ran well into the thousands annually, whereas now it is free. Even if it ceases to be distributed, those of us who obtained it now can use it to our hearts content worldwide, and we sure as hell plan to.

Suffice it to say briefly, that no other "competitor" when stacked up point for point with trueSpace offers the customer to CONTROL every aspect of their online world as they see fit, with only one exception, trueServe. The structuring of all inworld revenue systems, income sources and event revenues and advertising, and.... and... and.... is ALL determined by the trueServe client. No other online world creation software truly offers that on close inspection. To grasp the mindset of genuine investors, one needs to see that they MUST invest regularly or face taxes on their accumulated wealth, so they seek out ways to invest which offer two VITAL components (1) "ROI" and (2) the ability to write the investment off against their takes, essentially making their investment free in the end. They can write off a trueServe investment in computer hardware or portal leases or branded custom content as an advertising or marketing investment, but they can do that anywhere... what matters deep down in their evaluation is "how much control of everything do they get." ROI = Return On Investment, and with ABSOLUTE control over every aspect of their world setup from top to bottom, they find trueServe singularly attractive in a world where no such competition exists.

Finis wrote:-- Aren't Second Life and online multiplayer games similar to this? If the market existed for trueServe business wouldn't some of those companies have already adapted their software to serve it?

No, they are not, for the reasons explained above. In SL, aside from having nearly ZERO control over your investment there as a business, SL also has another business-averting characteristic. it is an increasingly adult and sexually oriented universe, where the people tend as a rule to be extremely rude and aggressive. Not exactly conducive to businesses seeking the peace of their prospective or existing customers. SL is on it's way out soon, Active Worlds already is.

on the second question in that last paragraph, the answer is "if they were bright enough to see it, and capable enough to convert their existing structure to embrace it, then yes, of course, but none have."

The emergence of viable markets is often seen and harnessed by very few people at first, with behemoth corporations and groups being the very last to see them as viable until they feel the effects of their ignorance first in their own wallets. Some things never change.

froo · Post by **froo** » 07 Nov 2009, 01:37

This was an interesting read on cnn.com, though I'm not interested in Second Life:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/11/05/ ... index.html"

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 07 Nov 2009, 01:47

froo wrote:This was an interesting read on cnn.com, though I'm not interested in Second Life:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/11/05/ ... index.html"

yeah, that is a Linden Labs Press Release, they are hyping and hoping, lol. Fact is Linden Labs has such a miserable method of controlling revenues in their worlds that most businesses scoff at investing there. Then there is the issue of the adult nature of the worlds and the general rudeness of a growing majority there. Whether these new prototypes would truly be insulated from that remains to be seen, but even if Linden Labs does attract new markets this way the new markets are still faced with the fact that Linden Labs as a rule eats up the vast majority of your investments there leaving you a very small profit margin to strive toward right from day one. Whereas with trueServe you can charge your clients or members or customers whatever you see fit and in whatever ways you choose, without "Linden Labs" saying "no, you cannot do that" or "we require 78 percent (or whatever percent they demand) of all gross revenues from that type of transaction."

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Nov 2009, 02:28

It seems it was not the questions but the answers that were lost in the enthusiasm.

So DX9 has about 3 years? What happens to your trueServe based business then?

I didn't mean using the existing second life, etc., worlds for business but that the software that supports them probably could be morphed into something that people could use for online teamwork on projects. The behavior of people in the existing second life, etc., has no relation to that. They have the ability to move avatars around, communicate, and examine the virtual surroundings. Abilities similar to the multi-person modeling and the creation of your own world would be needed. Yes, they are probably stuck on their current business models and not being creative about other uses of their resources.

Now don't be insulted, the following is just a note intended to help you get more interest and participants ... I'm sure I've missed a lot of the explicit info. about how to make money with this because I seldom read all of any of your posts about it. That is because of the TV evangelist-like enthusiasm. It is obvious that you have researched this and have much knowledge but it gets lost, for me and I'll bet some others, in the emotion or salesmanship.

3dvisuals dude · Post by **3dvisuals dude** » 07 Nov 2009, 02:50

sorry for being enthuisiastic.

if you don't like salesmanship you won't ever like me, i have been a salesman all my life.

insult accepted, lets move on.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 07 Nov 2009, 16:36

Promises can be virtual but business is never virtual!

Roman · Post by **Roman** » 10 Nov 2009, 20:36

BooxieMalone wrote: Why not simply take out Lightworks and make VirtuaLight the standard?

To "take out" Lightworks from TS is anything but simple, it is realy connected tightly with model side.

Johny · Post by **Johny** » 11 Nov 2009, 10:10

Started from which version, tS use Lightworks as render engine?

zach wilson · Post by **zach wilson** » 11 Nov 2009, 20:14

I believe version 4 was the first to use lightworks.

Johny · Post by **Johny** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:31

zach wilson wrote:I believe version 4 was the first to use lightworks.

Then what's cause tS 3.2 can not available again for free download?

CdeB · Post by **CdeB** » 13 Nov 2009, 13:18

To answer the last question....

I think it is exactly the same issue as with Lightworks. I suspect (maybe even remember?

) that tS3 had an external renderer also licenced to Caligari and that too has now expired...but Roman will know

Benji · Post by **Benji** » 13 Nov 2009, 14:15

The original reason that 3.2 was taken away was because 7.6 had been released for free so Caligari/ MS considered it obsolete.

One solution would be for Caligari to give 6.6 and/or earlier versions of truespace to Lightworks. They could use it as a demo app. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 3d app as dead as truespace 666. Normally they get sold and linger on, or get morphed into other apps.

I guess we're special.

Message from Roman

Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman

Re: Message from Roman