United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Jun 2009, 02:49

This is my Egyptian war chariot.

I started it as a Monthly Modeling Competition entry on the Caligari TS forums. I won!

The Caligari forums will go offline someday and I'm going to repost the thread here but until then:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/s ... php?t=6917"

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Jun 2009, 03:05

I'm going to improve the mesh and sell the model. Your assistance will be appreciated.

Here are closeups of a wheel. The wheels have an inner ring, wheel, and outer ring, tire. This is the inner ring.

One picture shows the mesh around a hole where a spoke goes. The hole does not go through. What should I do to professionalize the mesh around the hole and at its back?

The other picture shows the V groove in the wheel. The tire fits into this groove so it won't slip. The wheel and tire couldn't be assembled if each is a solid piece. Also, how would the spokes get into the holes? Maybe two piece wheels and tires? Construction suggestions appreciated.

Note that I invented this construction for the chariot due to lack of information for a real one.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Jun 2009, 03:19

An assembly movie is another chariot project. Wheel assembly ... avi and wmv not allowed. I'll post movies if I decide to use youtube.

Mad Mouse · Post by **Mad Mouse** » 09 Jun 2009, 10:14

Wooden wheels were generally made in sections. (Not sure about egyptians)

The rim of the wheel would be in sections covering maybe 2 spokes to each section. The ends of each section would be joined using a type of mortise and tenon joint. Once assembled a metal rim just smaller than the outer circumference of the wheel would be heated to make it expand then fitted over the wheel and allowed to cool. As the metal rim cooled it would contract onto the wooden wheel clamping everything in place.

I hope that makes sense.

As for tidying up the mesh how about something like the attached image.

You should always aim for either quads or tris

HTH2

Nice looking chariot BTW. Can I tie it to the back of my tortoise

ATB

Steve

EDIT: Just found a pic of the sort of thing I'm talking about

Post by **Mr. 3d** » 09 Jun 2009, 12:44

Nice chariot Finis...that one got my vote in the MMC (a lot of good entrys were there also !). I really don't see where too much more work is needed...unless you're really pushing for authenticity ? BTW, I'm curious to know what kind of price you were thinking and what kind of returns some of the tS users here are getting from model sales ?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Jun 2009, 14:50

Mad Mouse wrote:Nice looking chariot BTW. Can I tie it to the back of my tortoise

If you buy it!

Thanks Mad Mouse. I'll do sectioned wheels and tires then. I knew about the heating of metal rims but not the sections. The Egyptians didn't have metal rims but they did use wooden tires connected by straps through slots. I'll make them segmented too. That solves all of the wheel assembly problems. Your mesh pic helps. I've got an idea of how to do that without running extra rings all the way around the object. I saw a technique used on faces that might work. What do "ATB" and "HTH2" mean?

Mr. 3d wrote:I really don't see where too much more work is needed...unless you're really pushing for authenticity ? BTW, I'm curious to know what kind of price you were thinking and what kind of returns some of the tS users here are getting from model sales ?

Thanks Mr. 3D.

I'm curious about price too. I don't know what to charge. Anyone know how to price models? It currently has 127 parts. There are holes and slots so the parts can be disassembled to reveal realistic construction details. I did that with animation in mind.

It's the mesh that needs improving. Like the super-N-gons around the holes. Also UV maps. For authenticity ... I'm going to repost the thread from the Caligari forums here so I'll avoid restating most of the info. in it right now. Lacking most of the authentic construction info. I opted to invent my own. So the construction goal is believability and assemble-ability. The Egyptians did have the tools to make one this way but they really did a lot of things differently.

Mad Mouse · Post by **Mad Mouse** » 09 Jun 2009, 17:40

ATB = all the best

HTH2 = hope that helps to.

HTH

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jun 2009, 00:59

Here is an improved mesh for the hole. There is a closeup and a farther view showing the technique for adding edges without putting a loop all the way around while making only quads. The yellow line picture shows the lines added to insert an edge like this and that the triangle is really a quad. Hmm that picture has scroll bars?

I added one loop. Now everything is quads except I'll put triangles from a central point for the back like Mad Mouse wrote.

See the polys with red? They are quads. Are they alright or should I make them tris?

MM: How did you make the hole mesh example picture? When I try DX view solid with mesh (TS5 same in model side) the mesh moves away from the solid if I move the camera close.

Mad Mouse · Post by **Mad Mouse** » 10 Jun 2009, 08:53

See the polys with red? They are quads. Are they alright or should I make them tris?

I suppose it depends on how fussy you are. Personally I prefer a better flow to my meshes. It's certainly better than it was.

MM: How did you make the hole mesh example picture?

Sorry, bit of a cheat, the screen grab was taken from Silo

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jun 2009, 14:42

Good point about flow. When used to make folds, eyebrows, wrinkles, or such for organic models the "insert an edge" technique makes a nice flow and adds detail or polys only where needed. Here it is just messy. I thought it would be good here since loops all the way around add a lot of polys that really don't have anything to do with the holes and it would be less work. Low poly isn't a goal for this model so why was I thinking about that?

Probably full loops then. Good flow is good and looks better too. First I'm going to rebuild the wheels and tires so they have more sections, rounder, and so the holes and strap slots fall uniformly in the center of quads. That might make "insert an edge" have good flow but full loops are probably better. I'll bet full loop neat flow meshes are easier to UV map too. The default might work fine.

Time to find jobs to apply for. Maybe there will be time for the chariot soon.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jun 2009, 15:31

the 6 spokes of the wheels are attached with strip and resin and then the whole is maintained with a ring. This is what gives the form of the spokes. You have not a hole in the middle of a piece of wood. the extremity of the spoke is between 2 pieces of the wheel (6 pieces). There is other method but it was that method egyptian did for this kind of charriot. That i see in this thread is a wheel for cowboys, not antic egyptian. it depend if you need a real historic model or not.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jun 2009, 19:27

Thanks Marcel!

I posted a lot in my MMC thread in the Caligari forum about my search for blueprints or plans or details of real Egyptian chariots. http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/s ... php?t=6917 I read about the strips of cow intestines (which contract as they dry) and glue and that the spokes and hubs were really 6 "V" shapes put together. They had wooden replaceable wheels, the outer ring, held on with strips through slots so the strips didn't wear off on the ground. Of course the chariots changed over the long time that they were used. The later ones had metal reinforcements and friction sleeves. They probably had woven mat floors too. There was an archeological site that had plans or diagrams but it cost money.

You are right that my construction is more modern. Since I couldn't find no-cost complete details about the construction I opted to invent one. So this one isn't intended to be historically accurate. I found that Egyptians did have the tools and techniques (lathes, drills, saws, chisels) to build one this way but they didn't do it this way. So I engineered this one so that it would work and could have been built back then ... although they would not have have done it this way.

If you, or anyone knows of free complete (emphasize complete) diagrams, blueprints, or details of the genuine construction then let me know. Anyone know of a book with all the details? I'll find my library card. I'd like to do a chariot that is historically accurate.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jun 2009, 21:13

OK i saw the other thread.
Your model look likes a chariot from the period between 1500 (Amenhotep) and 1300 (Toutankhamon) before christ. the spokes should be assembled on a single metallic piece in the center of the wheel. a sds object can be nice. You can modify the objet to do what you want.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jun 2009, 22:23

Thanks again Marcel. What would really be helpful would be the source of this information. Where did you find that? Then I can see the whole design and use it for another project to make a historically accurate chariot ... which I would like to do. Is that metal piece bronze, copper, or what? Yes, the look of mine is based mostly on photos of one of Tut's chariots.

This project is the imaginary engineering chariot.

marcel · Post by **marcel** » 10 Jun 2009, 23:13

after linking the spokes together and coated with resin, the central form is decorated with a metallic and gold appearance. this is not a cast. I have no source, i saw that in a museum. we often have a misconception of the past. The world was very colorful. Cathedrals painted with bright colors and the pyramids were white and gold. If the model seems too new, it seem not real but it is historically more accurate. The stones were not always old.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 14 Jun 2009, 00:42

Right you are. All the old things were new once.

I rebuilt the wheel so each hole in centered in a section. New mesh for holes. Is that good?

Jack Edwards · Post by **Jack Edwards** » 14 Jun 2009, 03:09

If you add an extra loop going around the outside of the hole and one on the inside, it will hold it's shape better when SDS is applied. This is much better geometry than you previous posted.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 14 Jun 2009, 03:36

Thanks Jack. There'll be no SDS on this or most of this model.

The wheels have slots on their inner surfaces to hold straps. I think these can be seen in the big picture in the first post. Here is a picture of a strap slot. Close up and showing its location on the wheel with a yellow mark.

What should I do about the 8-gon marked with green?

I'm thinking of splitting the quad marked with red into tris to continue that line by merging it with one of the other lines under the slot. Is that good?

Jack Edwards · Post by **Jack Edwards** » 14 Jun 2009, 05:16

If you're not planning to do SDS then the "rules" are a bit different and there's no real need to avoid triangles. The issues are more with getting good normals.

You can fix the 8 sided polygon by continue the loops on either side of the recessed area back around the rim until they connect up and by continuing the recessed edge as a loop along the rim. This would also mitigate the need to modify the red marked polys and is probably the best solution.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 24 Jun 2009, 20:22

WOW! lots of detail and thought in it so far Finis... looking good :)

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Jul 2009, 02:56

@Jack: I did what you said and it worked great. Very nice mesh that way.

@Theuns: Thanks! I'm trying to make all the details good because I'm going to sell it.

Pictures later when more work is done. I'd probably have time to work on it if I quit hiking and posting in other threads.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 15 Jul 2009, 14:34

sell it? anywhere specific you had in mind to sell it?

I've been thinking of maybe doing some models to sell as well but haven't gotten around to it.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Jul 2009, 16:48

Hi Theuns,

I'm not sure about where to sell it other than several 3D sites have model sales areas, Turbosquid, and 3dFrog's place. Anywhere I can find that seems of good reputation.

Experience or suggestions anyone?

nigec · Post by **nigec** » 15 Jul 2009, 20:13

It would be interesting to here if folks have any joy selling anythng online, from what I've seen you get a rush to begin with then nothing to a trickle.
Models will be like selling an old car, it'll sell if someone wants it, otherwise your stuck with it for years
I had a friend who sunk years worth of effort in creating and animating 3D game studio content, bought bucket loads of webspace etc and as soon as he started charging people he fell on his a**. his work was great, he was regarded highly in the 3DGS world but no one was willing to spend money
Maybe this is a topic for elsewhere

lothissen · Post by **lothissen** » 15 Jul 2009, 20:19

Finis wrote:Hi Theuns,

I'm not sure about where to sell it other than several 3D sites have model sales areas, Turbosquid, and 3dFrog's place. Anywhere I can find that seems of good reputation.

Experience or suggestions anyone?

You could try Daz or Cournucopia, if you can make the model compatable with Poser or Vue. Not sure of their terms though

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 15 Jul 2009, 23:25

Yeah Nigec, that's a problem for lots of businesses or money making efforts -- everyone expects free stuff. They feel entitled to it and won't even pay for better stuff. For me though trying to sell models is just for burger money and to encourage me to make better ones. (The way the job situation is here "burger money" may soon refer to how I earn it rather than how I spend it.)

Thanks Lothissen.

Places to sell models:
3Dfrog's place
Turbosquid
Daz
Cornucopia

Who knows of more places?

froo · Post by **froo** » 16 Jul 2009, 01:27

Cool Finis.

Well, there's at least 2 sides to a product:

1) Development / Release

2) Marketing (Ugh!)

Successfully Marketing the product may very well be more difficult than developing it.
But it's gotta be done in order to generate revenue.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 16 Jul 2009, 01:46

@Froo: Tell me about it. Until I get a job, or a big jolt of paying customers, I can hardly afford ads for my gallery business ... which means no jolt of customers signing up ... which ... uh oh, some kind of vicious circle there. Creating an effective ad isn't so easy either.

Karthogen · Post by **Karthogen** » 16 Jul 2009, 14:52

Have you tried to trade add space, with other similiar sites?

You advertise for them they advertise for you to get more hits. Also find one of the pay adds from like Google adds, and put it up on your site so each hit generates a little revenue for you, if you qualify. The trouble would be the balance between the ads and the content, If you have an all adds page without much content then you will have no return customers.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 16 Jul 2009, 15:42

Thanks Karthogen. I appreciate all advice about ads and business related to my gallery but it belongs in my off topic thread vi ... ?f=16&t=35" .

For ads and business stuff related to selling models remember I'm not trying to do that as a business (great if I could). I just want easy ways to sell whatever I do as a hobby to encourage me to improve my skills. Hopefully, by compiling a list of sites for that this will help everyone here.

Places to sell models:
3Dfrog's place
Turbosquid
Daz
Cornucopia
http://www.the3dstudio.com" -- found this one

Who knows of more?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Jul 2009, 02:39

Here is the slot in the wheel with the mesh like Jack said.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Jul 2009, 03:01

New problem. How to divide the wheel and its tire into sections kind of like Mad Mouse noted earlier in this thread.

Show in this side view: the spokes, the wheel, the wooden tire (expanded), and the straps that hold the tire on. The straps go in the slots on the wheel and through the slots in the tire.

The wheel and the tire need to have 2 or 3 sections. I'll make a pegged tongue and groove joint at the cuts.

Things to consider:
- Must be possible to assemble.
- Structurally strong. Wheel cuts can't go through slots or spoke holes. Tire cuts can't go through slots. Cuts must not be far from support.
- At least two spokes per section.

So where to cut the wheel and the tire? I think two wheel sections with the cuts near spokes. Three tire sections with cuts near straps.

Suggestions?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 02:18

I've got the tire and wheel in sections with tabs and slots (tongue and groove?) and rebuilt or worked on the mesh for the wheel parts. The hub and the straps are still to be done.

Here is a disassembled view and an assembled view of the new wheel.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 02:28

The tire's mesh is clean and simple. The tab and slot prevent the parts from separating with outward motion. This joint is to be glued. A strap goes through the rectangular hole to hold it on the wheel. The V on the bottom fits into a V on the top of the wheel which prevents motion along the axis of the axle.

I would have made a hole for a dowel to secure the parts but holes that aren't in the middle of an n-gon require extra loops and polygons.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 02:40

The wheel also has a tab and slot joint which would be glued. The wheel's slot is vertical while the tire's is horizontal. When strapped together this holds the sections in all directions.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 02:45

The mesh for the spoke holes and the strap slots is clean now.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 02:48

Here are the spokes and the cones and disks that support the wheels.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 15:30

Next is the hub. It is the product of boolean subtraction of the spokes and a cylinder from a cylinder. I'll probably rebuild it with the goal of a clean mesh in mind. Maybe I can connect the dots on this original one.

Steinie · Post by **Steinie** » 02 Aug 2009, 15:38

Sorry to mess up your thread Finis but to make it clear we are watching...
Great job and really cool attention to details.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Aug 2009, 18:53

Not messed up. Threads are for posting. Sometimes I take an increasing view count but no posts to mean I'm doing it right.

I shouldn't work on this so much now. I think it's escapism from the job situation here. During good times it is as hard to get a job in my town as in bad times in most other places. I can't even get a job as a dish washer.

theuns · Post by **theuns** » 04 Aug 2009, 21:10

Looking good Finis! Love the precise design of the parts, right up my ally but VERY timeconsuming if I don't check myself ;)

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Aug 2009, 02:36

Theuns: It sure is time consuming but I'm learning how to make models right the first time.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Aug 2009, 02:50

To rebuild the hub with a better mesh I needed some loops that would connect with the vertices of the outer rim of the spoke holes. I also needed clean loops to go around through the central hole.

I needed a profile for the lathe tool that would produce the needed loops (fig. b). To get it I made edges in point edit on a modified version of my original hub (fig. a). The edges projected the vertices of the spoke hole onto an existing edge. That made the needed vertices. I added edges on the sides of the hub to connect to an edge in the central hole and complete the profile. I had to add extra side edges or the needed ones would disappear. They were useful later though.

I selected the two slices made by the extra side edges and separated that. Then applying the same technique to unneeded parts I ended up with the profile.

Now I remember that on the wheel I made a profile like this buy separating a section that exposed the profile as a face. Point edit selection of that face allowed the separate selected part tool to work. That technique is more efficient.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Aug 2009, 03:03

Now to use the lathe tool on the profile to produce the basic hub (fig. c). I couldn't adjust the radius for the lathe precisely enough so I multiplied the size of the profile, lathed it, and shrank the resulting object.

Then I boolean subtracted the new spokes from the hub (fig. d). To do this I used W!zard's Rule of Bool: a boolean operation using a group of objects will work better than several booleans with one each. W!zard correct me if that's not right.

Now there are edges that are almost loops for each vertex on the tops of the spoke holes. My task now is to weld all the points where the edges are off a little from the vertices of the booleaned parts and straighten up any jitters that causes. If I don't weld them there will be n-gons.

I learned that if I intend to model holes then I must plan the construction of the object with the holes to support them. Booleans aren't always the best way to make a hole. Making this geometry "flat" and then selecting and "sinking" portions of it would probably be good.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Aug 2009, 04:38

The hub with the points welded and mesh cleaned up.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 12 Aug 2009, 04:42

The straps that hold the tires on.

Shown are the control mesh, the extracted SDS mesh, and a render plus the strap in place on the wheel. Textures need work after UV mapping.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Chariot

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