Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Musikman
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Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hi

This is not exactly a TS question, however, maybe I can find some good advice here if there are any experienced animators, especially character animators who have used PoserPro or CT6.

I spent about a half hour with TS's facial animator yesterday. Still alot of reading and experimenting to do when I get the time to play around with it, but fairly quick to get started for a first attempt. Seems it can do a few tricks, but I'm also looking into a couple of other programs, hopefully someone here maybe has had experience with?

I've watched most of the video tuts on CT6 (CrazyTalk6), and also downloaded the manual and checked out just a few basic features. As far as I could tell.....
CT6 appears to be all 2D, also, you really can't model with it, and I don't even know if you can import a 3D model, seems the program works mostly off of image files and to my knowledge no mention of 3D models at all. (that's not to say you can't import a jpeg of your 3D model) The thing I like about it is, for what its strength is, which is making an image talk, the tools are advanced enough to actually be extremely easy to setup and use, and surprisingly accurate and versatile. Definitely a great program to do 2D cartoons. Monty Python would have made great use of this program. :D

The other program is I'm a bit more interested in is PoserPro 2010, especially since it's half price until the end of the month, but I haven't checked it out thoroughly enough yet to draw any conclusions about it. From what I have seen/read on their website, they have tutorials, but they're not video tuts, and although very detailed, they are not my personal preference for the best way of learning a new program, I prefer vids and learn faster with them. I did read through a couple of their rather detailed tuts however, and although there were some basically easy common sense dials and familiar tools, I did find it overall a bit more complex to understand the UI compared to CT6.

The most significant difference however is that Poser does 3D, ie...modeling, rigging, bones, etc.... I think just at a glance, comparing just the lip syncing tools for example, CT6 seems to get the setup job done quicker, and the animations/sfx/speech are all organized quickly in tracks in the stage/key editor. That said however, maybe it's because Poser's toolset for lip syncing and animation is more intricate, (more dials and controls to deal with), could be a good thing for better accuracy, but then could be much more time consuming to get results as well.

I'm anticipating most of my character dialogue is going to be done by creating wav files here in my music studio, as opposed to using a text to speech type method. So, I'll probably be importing the wav files into a program and syncing most of the dialogue/speech using the other available tools.

Any thoughts/suggestions from experienced PoserPro users, (or possibly an alternative program in the same price range) would be appreciated, and would help me to make a wise buying decision. Thanks!

Musikman
Last edited by Musikman on 14 Mar 2010, 06:24, edited 1 time in total.
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RAYMAN
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by RAYMAN »

While poser pro isnt a bad option I use both Poser 8 and daz studio 3 . The best thing about daz studio is its free and almost has better controls for nil !
The only reason I use Poser is to setup my models and make exports for morph targets. But you can buy those for a few quid from daz too !
They are called setup tools. I always export the whole ting to Vue from poser asa Poser file aned from daz as a Collada file.
Daz has got a simplelipsynch built into it. The Michael base mesh and the Victoria base mesh are also free from Daz and you can make your own morphs with it.
If you want i can guide you through the process of using it !
Vue now also imports Truespace collada character animations by the way !
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the advice, and much appreciate the offer to guide me through the process, I'll definitely take you up on that once I've got the program(s) installed. I had downloaded just the manual for Daz a couple of months ago out of curiousity to get a peek at the program's tools, and tbh it confused the heck out of me. :? Now, granted my primary function with Firebird Studios is music and sound fx, so I'm just under one year's experienced in 3D since installing TS. I still find TS quite challenging, but gradually improving, and have been working with Vue Infinite PLE for the past few months as well. I don't know a lot about character modeling, morph targets, etc... except for what I've recently read, and I suppose based on your comments that it wouldn't hurt to have both Poser and Daz, I just figured it to be quicker to become familiar with and learn just one.

Would you say that when using my own created wav files (instead of text to speech), Daz's lipsync capabilities are more accurate than Poser, or could I achieve accurate results in either program? I also noticed in Jeffroig's tutorial that he mentions using Argile for touchup work.

Paul
Last edited by Musikman on 14 Mar 2010, 06:41, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Steinie »

Hi Musikman!
I received your email and want to make sure you get started in the right direction.
Rayman I see already supplied some good direction for you. I'll try to get JeffRoig
to answer your questions because he too is very experienced.
I would love to help you myself but there are others here far more experienced than me.
My lip sync experience is still in the beginner stage so I'll leave this to the qualified.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hi Steinie, no problem, thanks for trying to get JeffRoig to chime in, much appreciate it. In the meantime, I'll continue doing a bit more research. :bananatyping:
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Steinie »

I got in contact with Jeff and he will help you out tomorrow.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

Hey Misikman,
Steinie did touch base with me and I read your post and I have some answers for you.
First of all you are correct about CrazyTalk its all 2d but yet it does a fairly good job for what it is.
I never went too deep into the TS facial animator, it just didnt have what I needed.
The best way and the least expensive way to go is to purchase Poser 6 or above.
If you use Poser 6 you will need the software from Daz called LipSync, I use it and it does a very nice job.
It allows you to take a wav file that you have created and then import it into the software, once the wav is in the software you then type what the wav file is saying, the wav file and the text are combined and put into a time line.
Once in the time line you can adjust the way the mouth moves. When you are satisfied with the results you then export it out as a Poser pose file. Once you have opened up Poser and loaded a figure into the software you can go under the pose section and apply the pose to the figure and the mouth/head will move. You have to make sure you do not delete the wav file as this is still needed to finish the animation. As far as the creating of a custom character and doing the morphs to make the mouth and eyes move that is a different story, one that will have to wait.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hey Jeffroig

Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was a Lipsync software from Daz, I'll check into that. As far as Poser, I was figuring on going with PoserPro2010 since the price is slashed in half right now. I don't know whether or not the newest version of PoserPro has accounted for lipsyncing by now, something else worth finding out before buying more software.
As far as the creating of a custom character and doing the morphs to make the mouth and eyes move that is a different story, one that will have to wait.
No problem, gonna be awhile before I even get going on all this. I'll save your lipsync instructions for reference once I get everything setup, much appreciated. ;)

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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

I would think the new version has it built in. I know that Poser Pro and Poser 8 have it.
I tried it but it didnt provide the customizing like the Daz product does.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

I downloaded the Mimic Lipsynch manual, looking through briefly the UI actually seems very user friendly, looks like a very cool tool! Not a bad price either. Thanks Jeff, I'll probably see how well I can do with Poser's onboard lipsync tools first, then go from there, nice to know there's another option.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by RAYMAN »

One thing is important your character has to have the vowel and consonant morphs that the lipsynch needs so i would suggest to use an already
available character either Michael base and Victoria base from daz site (free) or use one of the characters from Poser.
You can make them look like you want them to look by morphing them rather then building humans from scratch.
if you make cartoons that is different you need to set those up and make the lipsynch morphs...
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hi Rayman,

I've very green :mrgreen: at this, but I believe what you're referring to is the vowel and consonant morphs like the ones that are stored in TS's facial animator that work with the text to speech function, is that correct? If so, I believe that Poser maybe has those included as well, and if I'm not mistaken I think those can even be edited if need be. Good to know Michael and Victoria are free, I can add them to whatever characters come included with Poser.
You can make them look like you want them to look by morphing them rather then building humans from scratch.
That sounds much easier than building humans from scratch, don't think I have the skills to tackle that just yet! So by "morphing" them, you mean using the PE tools to transform/alter the facial mesh of the default characters to make them look different, correct?
Thanks for helping out, much appreciated! :)
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by RAYMAN »

correct ! :)
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Ok, good to know I'm on the right path anyway! I found a few video tutorials for Poser online, but most of their own tuts are not video. Once I purchase the software and get up and running I'm going to try following along with some tutorials to see what I can do with it. I'd love to get Vue, I have the Infinite PLE version, so I want to save up to get a license for that version, no modules to deal with, it's a little pricey, but I enjoy creating stuff with it. I'll certainly take you up on the assistance you offered if I get stuck in the process, thanks for the support Peter

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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

I wanted to update this post and let you know about Poser 2010.
I tried it and have to say that it has some issues, it locked up my computer several times and it shut down on its own during the render process and some of my characters I designed when loaded they would go wacky.
I am using a HP DV 9000 laptop with a turion 64 processor and windows vista ultimate 64 bit and a NVIDIA GeForce 6500 video card that has shader 3. I could not get it to work correctly. I contacted tech support and they said "We are working on a fix for those known issues" why release a piece of software and charge for it, if it doesnt work correctly. I got a refund and deleted it. Poser 6, 7 and 8 run flawless and work great so you may want to wait before you purchase Poser 2010.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Hi jeffroig

Well, your reply has made me both sad in a way, and glad in another. :cry: Too late for me, I've already purchased PoserPro2010, and I'm having very similar problems with the program freezing up and crashing, seemingly at will and not even able to link the problem to any specific set of moves or circumstances. Somewhat glad in a way that I'm not alone and you have posted here. Although tech support has told me it's most likely a video card or video driver issue, I was a bit skeptical as all my other 3D programs have been running quite well, and I only have an old Pentium 4, 2.8Ghz, with 2.5Ghz RAM, ATI Radeon HD 3850 video card with 512 MB RAM. So if the program is having so many issues with a well capable system like yours, then I have to consider that it's quite possible my pc is not the problem. Maybe I ought to think about trading down to poser 8 if they will allow me to. Will have to give that some thought, thanks for the information, much appreciated!

MM
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

Misikman,
They do have a return policy and depending on how long you have had the software they will refund your purchase.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Jeffroig,

Here is part of what I received from poser support. Have to admit the guy has been very helpful and patient with trying to help me work this out, however, the program is still crashing now and then, so I haven't yet found the culprit, if any. What got me thinking is that you mentioned Poser 6,7, & 8 all running fine, yet tech support mentions below that PoserPro2010 and Poser 8 have the same coding, and feels that switching to 8 would probably not help any. Curious as to your thoughts on this.


With regards to other users, we have no active reports of crashing issues described. I searched through the closed/solved incidents, and with a few exceptions, all were resolved and the user is continuing to use the program. The few exceptions seemed to be isolated to specific systems or content, which even the user could not duplicate. Based on your error messages, the issue is specific to Display and Drivers. Also, if the 32 Bit version of Poser Pro 2010 crashes on your system, you will have the same issues with Poser 8, since they use the same coding. I will be more than happy to help you work through the issues you are having. There can not be anything to fix without a bug report of an issue with the steps to duplicate. Also, if you can have these other users you mentioned contact Support, it would be greatly appreciated. If others truly are having these issues, the combination of reports may allow us to locate a common factor for the issue.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

Musikman,
I have Poser 8 and have never had a problem with it.
I use Poser 6 for the following reasons. I have 5 licenses for it and if you have ever tried to install Poser on more than one machine on a network using the same license you will discover that if you try to run more than one at a time with the same license that it will not allow you. I only have one license for Poser 8 so I mostly use 6. The tech support for Poser is great and they follow up on every report and try their best to resolve the issue. I will say that they have one of the best ways of handling tech support issues I have yet to see. The difference between your computer and mine other than the hardware is that I am running a 64 bit system so the problems that I had may not apply to your problem, you are using the 32 bit version so they might not be able to refrence my support problem against yours. The bottom line I would have to say is if you are not satisfied with the product then return it. You can find Poser 6 and 7 on Ebay. You have seen my material and I use the standard Poser 6 render engine and get good results. If we lived closer I would invite you over so we could sit down and work on two computers running Poser 6, 7 and 8 so you can see that the advantages of Poser 2010 are not so great. if there is any other info I can provide you with to help, please let me know I am all about helping out the other guy.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

I forgot to add I did have one similar problem with Poser 8 and found out that it was a video codec that was causing the problem. You might want to unistall and video codecs you have and then try Poser. You can find a good resource for video codecs at http://www.free-codecs.com/ the newest version of Divx can cause some problems.
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by Musikman »

Jeffoig

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. I really have nothing I can put my finger on as far as what the issue could be. The tech support seems to be fairly certain it is a video/driver issue. That said, I know I have all the latest codecs since I had a virus problem a month ago and had my friend rebuild my HD, reinstall my OS and I've basically had to start over from scratch, installing all my music programs, 3D programs, codecs, drivers, etc...
I forgot to add I did have one similar problem with Poser 8 and found out that it was a video codec that was causing the problem. You might want to unistall and video codecs you have and then try Poser. You can find a good resource for video codecs at http://www.free-codecs.com/" the newest version of Divx can cause some problems.
Is there a way to just uninstall only the Divx codec without uninstalling them all? Apologies, my technical knowledge on these kinds of things, especially video, only takes me so far. (Now if it were a music software issue, I'd have it solved by now.) I'm pretty sure I have the Divx codec installed as the package my friend installed covered most of the ones needed to run just about any type of video.

Yep, that would be cool if you could pop over to have a look, 8-) I appreciate the thought.

My dilemma is whether to continue searching for the answer with PoserPro2010, or return it and take a chance on Poser 8. Problem is if I go through that process and 8 doesn't work very well either, then it's back to returning 8 and maybe trying out 7. Decisions, decisions!! :( If you don't mind, let me know whether I can uninstall only the Divx codec, it's worth a shot, and something I certainly wouldn't have thought of, thanks!

MM
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Re: Character Animation Software Inquiry - Poser, CT6

Post by jeffroig »

Musikman,
If youi gp to control pannel and then add remove programs, look for video codecs, you can remove the divx by itself.
I would go back before going forward.
Meaning, look through the list of programs install and find anything that says video codec, NOT VIDEO DRIVER, then uninstal those. Next try Poser see if the problem still happens. If so then you know this was not the problem. The next thing you want to try is the quality setting for the video card by right clicking on the desktop not on and icon and go to propertiesm then advance and then check the settings of the video card, there should be a slider control to adjust the quality, try playing with this to see if it make a difference.
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