United3dArtists Archive

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 Oct 2015, 19:38

Here is a test of instancing in Daz-Iray. There are 600 instances of the sci fi tube and dude. Approximately 24 million instance polygons. After 18 minutes of rendering it was 3% done. Only 250mb of video card memory used so many more instances could be used.

Things learned: Use a geometry shell for the character. Much faster than full character. Use solid bounding box for screen display when possible. All the instances really slows UI response. Make things invisible when not using them. Light emitting surfaces can be used with instances. The "sun and sky only" and "dome only" lighting options don't effect light emitting surface light. It is still there. Use base resolution no subD character unless high poly subD is needed. To copy groups of instances use the duplicate group hierarchies tool on edit menu.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Dec 2015, 02:43

Trying a realistic render. I did not make any of these items. The 1968 Firebird is from http://www.tf3dm.com" . The bushes are Bryce trees. The ground and wall are planes. The materials come with Daz-Iray or are textures I already had. Rendered with Iray in Daz. Render time 15 minutes. Some post processing for contrast and brightness in Paint Shop.

I tried an HDRI image as the visible environment but it was always too fuzzy. Seventeen megabytes of image. How do I get clear HDRI environments so I put objects in them without building an environment from models?

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Dec 2015, 07:30

Finis wrote:Trying a realistic render. I did not make any of these items. The 1968 Firebird is from http://www.tf3dm.com" . The bushes are Bryce trees. The ground and wall are planes. The materials come with Daz-Iray or are textures I already had. Rendered with Iray in Daz. Render time 15 minutes. Some post processing for contrast and brightness in Paint Shop.

I tried an HDRI image as the visible environment but it was always too fuzzy. Seventeen megabytes of image. How do I get clear HDRI environments so I put objects in them without building an environment from models?

Very easy Finis you need HDRI's with an awsome amount of size!
Its a very nice render you made..you are getting there!
When I make the enviroments I use Sketchup..even the free version works well
and make the Hdr's inside my landscape 3d app..the hdr can have lower pixel count since
I can use the portion of the stage...its more realistic!;)
If you need to use HDR only the best bet is to split your hdr...
some people use a very long lens and take a picture of a sphere...like
a christmas ornament with an average resolution and then the portion on which
the 3d object should stand with a very high res....you then
res the low pix part up to match the high res part in ie Photoshop
or Gimp and copy them together...they dont have to match 100%
Since you only see the low res in the reflectiob of your 3 d model...
Note though that the size of your HDR inside the app will be incredibly large..

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Dec 2015, 18:58

I'll try another image of this car using the default blurry Iray HDRI for light and the modeled surroundings. This one used sun and sky lighting. I'll also try one with an ordinary format spherical image on a sphere as a light emitting texture.

This HDRI thing is starting to be silly. Thanks for the advice Rayman. However, it seems the work-arounds to make HDRI backgrounds useful is just going back to IBL or a sphere with a light emitting texture maybe plus a backdrop plane or other shape with an image. Since HDRI apparently doesn't work well without many troublesome work-arounds why use it? Here are my thoughts presented so I can be corrected and educated about HDRI.

-- I like the idea of IBL. The lighting puts the objects in the environment. The environment being a photo for realistic renders avoids detailed realistic modeling of things that aren't the main items. For instance, it would take much work to get my plants, wall, and ground to match the realism of the car. I'm not seeing an advantage to huge HDRI files nor their characteristics.

Claim: Lighting from an HDRI image is better.
-- The effect of brightness and color from different directions is present in regular IBL or light emitting sphere.
-- HDR images can represent very bright pixels and subtle variations of color. Thus "high dynamic range". Since normal humans can see about one million colors unless you are a tetrachromat (link) you can't see these colors.
-- The ultra resolution of the images is not needed for lighting so the huge file size is wasted. HDRI enthusiast's own methods show that it is not needed since they sometimes produce or use "convolved" images which are intentionally blurry for lighting.
-- We don't have screens with a brightness that would blind you by looking at an HDR image of the sun so the extra brightness won't be seen. It could be that the extra brightness in HDRI's produces some subtle lighting difference in an ordinary dynamic range render but I doubt there is any significant improvement to a viewer's perception of the render.

Claim: HDRI is good for background environments.
-- Since the enormous files just produce blurry backgrounds while smaller normal format image files look great on a background sphere this is obviously not true. Why use a huge file when a smaller one works great?
-- I can see possible problems with non-super-resolution spherical images looking good at a distance but looking bad closer. I think that could happen for example under the car in this image. So work-arounds would be needed for non-HDRI too.

Claim: HDRI is good for reflections.
-- Blurry images are not good for reflections and only HDRI's of unimaginable size are clear.
-- Smaller normal format images look great on background spheres and thus in reflections. Why use a huge file when a smaller one works great?

High quality huge HDRI's are expensive or rare as free or cheap. Spherical (Mercator projection, typical sphere UV map) normal format images are more available. Rarity and expense means that illustrators would use fewer of them leading to monotony. "Oh not a car in THAT parking garage again."

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Dec 2015, 19:41

There isnt a big difference between ibl and hdr!!
The only difference is that you need different exposures
of the same ibl to make the hdr! Thats it.. nothing else!
Hdr is basically ibl!;)
In many hugh productions including ILM productions..Star wars
etc they arent using Hdr as a backdrop.. but are jusz making plain
high res pictures..this art ist called matte painting!
I never ever payed for hdr's! Its one of the best treats of Vue that even
the most basic version can render Hdr' s and export either as exr
or other format.. and for many forums I ve hosted these as giveaways..
Hdr' s have a higher dynamic range and give the tender engines
more legroom to calculate the highlights and shadows..thats all there
is to it ! Even 2000 x 1000 is enough for lighting only..if you dont use
it in your scene..!
If you want to make hdr with photography you need to splice the speric
ibls together and make different exposured versions of these
and run them through hdr merge software...Photoshop has it on board
natively!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Dec 2015, 21:14

update ! I Pm´d you about how you can do it for free..
But here is the step by step......
1. Downloaded the model and converted to file Format that it can understand..
2. dispers it... in this case with eco brush
3. render to Screen as Panorama..... Chose max size possible..
4. save as jpeg for Ibl OR......
5. Save as HDR or EXR .. for HDR like......
6. Import into Truespace as IBL and render..... OR Import into any other as HDR...... itrs basically not very different
Note that you can also render as sphericals if that is what your app loads.....!!!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Dec 2015, 22:37

Thanks Rayman. That's a cool feature of Vue. Great for landscapes and using models in them for environment spheres. Doesn't help with avoiding modeling things other than the hero objects but that's what do-it-yourself, buy it, find it, or "you gotta model it this time" are for. If I had Vue I would put the stuff in there and render with it.

Yeah the basic idea of light from an env. sphere is the same IBL or HDR. Still need lots of pixels but HDR files are bloated with extra bits for HDR when normal DR would be fine. I think the results are not perceptibly better.

New tests attached. One uses the default blurry HDR image for Iray and one uses a 273mb hdr sample from Dosch Design. It is permitted only for testing. The default one looks good except blurry reflections. I'm happy with the Dosch HDR one except for the file size and my gripes about the cost/rarity of cheap or free big, quality, HDR photos. Amazingly, the big HDR one rendered in about 3 minutes!

I also tried a 4096 wide jpeg in spherical projection as a light emitting texture. More pixels are needed for the background to look good but the lighting on the car was ok. The main problem was that making the light emitter bright enough made the background look bad.

So HDR alone is ok if I can get or make a big enough, high res enough, file. Otherwise use a back drop. Yes matte painting.

Edit: I've read that Daz Iray currently has issues with the clarity of the HDRI images. They are said to behave unpredictably and may be clear or not.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Feb 2016, 17:58

Experiment with Daz-Iray for a tea cup with tea. I'm interested in caustics and speed of rendering. The tests rendered for 4 minutes each. The path tracing (bdpt) produced caustics the fastest reaching 84% finished and 229 iterations. Metropolis light transport (mlt) with caustics was very slow reaching less than 1% finished. However, the images look similar to the bdpt ones so maybe number of iterations is the best measure. Mlt will produce some caustics itself and that is starting to show in the image.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Jan 2017, 18:41

Accidental Art. Fooling around and this happened. Some fine tuning after I saw it looked good. Any suggestions for a title?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 05 Jan 2017, 19:21

The Virus.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Jan 2017, 20:59

@ Draise: The Virus. Not bad. Another guy suggested "the land where play buttons come from".

Here is a test regarding my Art Shape picture. See Finished Artwork section. The top part shows noise or grains near the lights. The lower part shows that with less noise. Which looks better?

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 24 Jan 2017, 20:43

maybe would be nice to use the grain/noise version and add some film look...?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 24 Jan 2017, 21:18

I tried your suggestion Bitkar. Thanks. It looked good but not a look I like for this picture.

After trying a 2.5 hour render with a noise filter and another 2.5 hour render to near 100% convergence I like the original best. The speckles give the impression of particles in the air or water. Then I remembered Splinters used a "dreamy" Photoshop filter on some of his pictures that looked like this. So this probably should have been done with a much quicker render without the volumetrics and then Paint Shopped. Part of the filtered one is above and the converged one looked about the same.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 14 Mar 2017, 16:31

Blender hair.

Blender's dynamic hair system is interesting. There are significant problems though. First, it is a particle system and a flaw of the current particle system is the absence of rigid/soft body physics. It has its own physics for falling and reacts to force fields but doesn't collide with other objects ... like the character with hair. There are claims on the web that it did use collision but that was broken at some release of Blender.

How to have hair collide with a character's head (not just go through it), clothes, and other objects? Force fields. Particles do react to force fields. The clue to this is on the hair self interaction panel -- it sets up force fields. Tutorials and experiments show that objects that should have hair "lay" on them need a thin very powerful force field. It's shape should be set to "surface" so it is shaped like the object. Problem: If rigid/soft body physics is also being used the force field could interfere. Also, every object that will interact with the hair must have such a force field.

Hair can be styled, combed, but once that begins the dynamics will no longer work. How to have styled hair that drapes or collides with other objects uses rigid/soft physics without force fields?

Best solution: Developers change hair system to use rigid/soft body physics or cloth simulator.

Possible solution: Complex. Surely very slow with innumerable polygons. I have not tried this. Have the hair particle system generate the hair. Let it fall into place using force fields for collision with character and clothes. Use force field settings that leave a significant gap between object and hair. Be sure to use self interaction to avoid hairs intersecting. Style the hair. Covert it to a mesh. Apply soft body physics or cloth. Remove hair related force fields. This would be for realistic animations. For cartoons I'd use modeled sheets or shapes plus textures (like Daz) and soft body, cloth, or rigging.

Blender Trees

I played with the Sapling tree generator. It can rig the trees for animation. That's something expensive Plant Factory does. It can simulate wind effects. You can use your own geometry for the leaves. I think it could be used to generate many interesting shapes that aren't plants. Abstract sculptures for example. I'd prefer to have rigged trees react to a force field for wind. That way everything in the scene reacts to the same wind. I think that is possible.

Now to stop playing with the fancy toys and learn basic modeling. Not much time since the work season has started.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Apr 2017, 15:03

Blender.

How to use animation nodes to animate an object, like the vibrating box (link), but have the node animated object also react to its environment via physics. Problem, the vibrating box moves the balls but the balls do not move the box and the box does not "skitter" along the floor but acts as if there is no floor. Unaffected by gravity too. The node animation is the only thing that moves the box.

Imagine an animation where the box wiggles via animation nodes. As a result it moves around on the floor. Then a flood of balls hits the box. The box is still wiggling so it moves balls, moves itself as it the wiggling pushes on surrounding balls, and is carried along in the current of the ball river. Remember this is about animation nodes and rigid body physics working together. So using the fluid sim is not what is needed here.

Another example. The box wiggles and "skitters" on the floor as a result. A fast moving ball hits the box and bounces off. The collision turns the box over, which causes some bouncing, and makes it slide across the floor while the wiggling adds a randomness to the slide and bouncing.

Any suggestions?

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 30 Apr 2017, 17:50

Maybe instead of using the nodes, make it a rigid simulated item with Noise animation applied to some of it's attributes?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 May 2017, 01:19

Blender

@Draise: Thanks but the goal is to merge animation nodes and rigid body physics. Good suggestion though if I just wanted to do the examples given. My vibrating box animation does this in one direction only. It effects the physics objects but they don't effect it. I want to learn if it is possible to have a node animated object effect and be effected by objects with rigid body physics.

Superman can push you but you can't push him. He has one way physics. His actions effect you but your actions don't effect him. I don't want a node animated object to be Superman. Currently my vibrating box is Superman.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jun 2017, 18:02

Blender video editor

Film editing going well but I'm spending too much non-free time on it. Lack of discipline. Self discipline is a big part of success in almost everything.

The editor has the Blender style user interface of course. Since I'm learning Blender that's ok. Although I only need simple abilities I'm finding that this editor is not so good. It seems to be unfinished or poorly planned and poorly implemented. Some functions have no undo or opposite functions. Simple things like speeding up or slowing down a strip are difficult and don't work well. Even using a still image in a movie is a mess.

So I recommend using some other video editor even if you know Blender and won't have trouble with the interface. It is just not good even at basic things.

I'll try Hit Film next time I edit something. An official writing in Hit Film's forum confirmed that the social media sharing part of getting the free version can be skipped. If so then why do you get a serial number for tweeting etc.? Surely that serial number is for something. I don't mind publicizing it, after trying it, in exchange for the free version. That is a low price indeed and respects the company's reason for having the free version. But even if I was on twitter or fakebook why would I publicize it before trying it?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 17 Jun 2017, 20:32

Here's my major motion picture of the hang gliding event. https://vid.me/Splododyne

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 28 Jun 2017, 18:28

I want to make a dvd from the hang gliding video to play on modern HD televisions.

Recommend some freeware dvd authoring software. Best if it can also perform any conversion necessary.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 29 Jun 2017, 18:26

You know Finis! I like free and its sometimes realy cool...but sometimes spending 25 bucks can save yourself a lot of time!!!!!
I bought myself 2 pretty easy video converters and they do real magic and are pretty easy to use!
One bonus of those is that i can record tutorials from the screen and that comes right out of the box!
A very good set of video tools comes from Magix!
They are powerfull and wont break the bank!

My converter is from avanquest ie!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 29 Jun 2017, 18:35

this is awsome...and veryeasy to use !
https://www.wondershare.net/pro/video-c ... 7Qodx58DFg

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Jun 2017, 02:35

Thanks Rayman. Those all look like good products. You are right about spending some to get good stuff. Free stuff, with some exceptions, is often inferior, unsafe, unstable, not maintained, and so on. Just a few DVD's to make though so no spending money this time. I got Any Video Converter and it worked well.

I got Hitfilm Express and tried it. For my simple video editing needs it is great. Also it is a compositor and has much more ability so there is room to grow. Thanks for recommending it V3rd3.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Jul 2017, 19:43

What uninterruptible power supplies do you all use? Is this one good? http://www.microcenter.com/product/3198 ... Protection

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 28 Jul 2017, 17:46

I dont use any at all! I use the laptop when I go out of the city.. and inside the city a dont use one because I dont need one! We dont have very high alternates in our power supply! I do saving the files very often.. so I normally dont lose work! Greetings Peter

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 28 Jul 2017, 17:57

For the price I get 3 months of substance live subscription! If I stop after 12 months I even own a copy..and thats the best texture editor there is apart from the painter mari!

v3rd3 · Post by **v3rd3** » 28 Jul 2017, 20:09

Cyberpower is a good brand ... I use APC by Schneider electric... https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.a ... 6842101393

I have an earlier model of this one I bought about 8 years ago and it still runs great and I have had no need to change the batteries.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 30 Jul 2017, 17:21

@Rayman Electric power is mostly stable here but storms occasionally cause a blackout. My computer doesn't like power cut off's. Uncommon but has caused problems more than once. Power cut off is usually intentional due to system lock up, no ability to shut down, but avoiding black outs with a ups would be nice. Substance painter looks great but I'll use Sculptris since it is free and I need cheap stuff. Mari! I like Foundry products like Modo. They have a feel of quality and thoughtful engineering but far out of price range for me.

@V3rd3 I might get a CyberPower then. What about wattage? At full throttle, gadgets maxed like during a render, I think my computer would use considerably more than the 330w provided by the ups I linked to.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Sep 2017, 16:39

Who are the independent or hobbyist film makers who are or were on this forum? There's Frank Ladner, Seppgirty, and ...

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 13 Nov 2017, 14:35

I thought I might get myself some computer stuff for Christmas. A UPS, a liquid cpu cooler, or another video card for rendering. The cpu stays cool enough. I expected the gtx 10 series cards to go down in price but they have increased. I might have added another gtx1060 or sold mine and bought a 1070 but a 1060 now cost about $80 more than mine did.

I'm studying Joomla and I intend to remake my websites with it.

pugman 1 · Post by **pugman 1** » 13 Nov 2017, 15:23

you are on the right tracks with the 10 series gpu wish i could get one

Draise · Post by **Draise** » 14 Nov 2017, 13:42

I use a GTX 1060 now, very happy.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 22 Dec 2017, 21:27

Thinking about animations I did a test for render time and storage use. Using Blender with the "pabellon barcelona" benchmark I ran a 4k (4096x2160) cycles gpu render with 200 samples. Result: 26 minutes on my gtx 1060 3gb.

So for a 10 minute 4k 60fps animation, 26 minutes x 36000 frames, that is about 15600 hours or 1.78 years render time and 117gb disk storage for the images.

Guesstimate from that for 1080p (1/4 pixels), 30 fps (1/2 frames), and gtx1070 (about 2x speed). That is 975 hours or about 40 days render time. Much time could be saved with clever settings and maybe the new denoiser but that is still days of render time. The benchmark used is realistic and may be more demanding than the non-photoreal things I have in mind but it would still take a long time.

Maybe eevee realtime renderer can do it faster. Otherwise that means a renderfarm and I doubt that could be free and this is a hobby.

Other stuff. I'll hopefully be responsible and not get a gtx 1070 at least until later when prices may go down. However, if I do decide to do that would any of you want to buy my MSI gtx 1060 3GB 1152 cores? I have the instructions and software that came with it but I tossed the box. https://msi.com/Graphics-card/GeForce-G ... -X-3G.html

UPDATE 12-24-17

To render a full 4k 60fps 10 minute animation in 48 hours would require each frame to take 4.8 seconds. I don't have to have that awesomeness of course. 1080p 30 fps is great. Also, a 4k image as an rgba png is 14mb.

Fooled with settings for more speed. Mostly the only things that make a big difference are samples and image size. Using only 30 samples plus the denoiser with its default settings produced a satisfactory (for my purposes) 4K image in 3.6 minutes using the benchmark scene. That's about 90 days for 10 minutes 4k 60 fps. A test with my boy-hoop-stick scene exported from Daz to Blender took 2 minutes to render with no materials and many instances not present.

So if I do an animation it needs to be 1080p 30 fps. That's fine for me. I'll test with that resolution soon.

What am I supposed to be doing? Baking a pie for the family Christmas Eve celebration. You all have a Merry Christmas!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 29 Dec 2017, 23:00

Like I always said in the past....! Its all about the right software and the right workflow!
I am into realtime animation now! I went for a 1070 with 8 gig and the solution is now a mix of Vue .. Blender .Sketchup...Cinema 4d and most important the realtime animation of i clone!
Looking much foreward to the possibilities of eevee inside Blender....!
The trick basically is first of all to shave off a lot of modelling time! Moi 3d is a good start... in a workflow with any kind of sds modeler...!
Sketchup is the turntable that lets you do kitbashing in the easiest and most efficient way!
I updated Vue from Inf to stream in the subscription form ! Cost me 300 $ per year which is still much but not earth shattering! The aspect of Vue ist that For the really big scenes I can use eco systems to drive thousands of instances! Throigh stream I can export all those while keeping the instane hirarchy to either Blrnder..... or Cinema 4d an then on to Thea for almost realtime gpu based render...! For the simple scene animation I use Iclone..! Its the most modern realtime animation that lets you use mocap.... and also record mocap!
Most of the mocap come from our old TS friend Truebones..! Iclone with crazytalk and daz id awsome!
All that is a workflow that shaves off ..tons of time
and lets you produce almost in realtime !

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 31 Dec 2017, 17:39

My nephew said his workplace has a machine with 4 Tesla k40's. No private use allowed of course.

Yeah, game/realtime render looks like the way to go for the projects I have in mind. Eevee should be great for that. I'll see when it is in the main release.

This is an interesting idea https://www.sheepit-renderfarm.com/. I don't think I could provide enough service to earn many points but it might be worth investigating. I'd be concerned about security. If it grows huge it could be amazingly fast with thousands of machines participating.

For a team project I hope to do if render time is an issue then it could be split among participant's computers. Each would render a different set of frames to be composited later.

Update Jan 1:

Looks like eevee doesn't use cuda/opencl/gpu cores. That means eevee and the real-time renders Rayman mentioned work without such expensive hardware. Still need cycles/vray/iray for ultimate accuracy and such but real-time is or will soon be good enough for many users including animators.

I have thought about the gpu trend that people were throwing more and more hardware at the same old rendering methods rather than finding more creative or elegant software solutions.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 03 Jan 2018, 12:44

The idea is both! You need to be picky about every mb you spend... pn objects in your scene! Use any kind of trick! Use instancing a lot... all that helps!
Then comes the hardware....!
You can save a lot on hardware if you know what you are doing! Very important is the power supply!
Try ti get around 1000 watts! Is not much much more money.... but .. I explane later!
The processor doesnt need to be the best best!
You can get a decent i 5 for 200$!
If you dont want to overclock a very simple board for 100$ will do! Ram isnt very important since only Adobe products only eat up lots of memory!
Just get 8 gig that plenty..16 even better.. but not necessary..!Try to get ssd rather then more HD!
They are a lot faster then old HD..etc!
And here comes the deal..get 2x graphics card with
8 gig ram each...ie 2x 1080! No ti necessary!
Motherboard has to support it though! Nvidia because of cuda! Why 2x 8 gig! Because 8 or even 6 gig dont even load big scenes..let apart render them!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 Jan 2018, 18:50

By elegant solutions (to rendering) I mean software engineers should solve the render speed need by inventing new and better ways to render. Gpu cards are more hardware power thrown at the same PBR methods. There are such things being done including real-time methods.

Tricks! Yes! I got the cycles render time for the pavillion benchmark down to 3.5 minutes for a 4K image with decent quality and 52 seconds at 1080p using tricks and compromises. Cycles denoiser plus fewer samples reduces time with little effect on quality. Kerkythea's photon mapping did a similar thing. Still I will probably use eevee for animations. It is real looking enough for me and I'm not usually interested in realism as much as creative ideas, art, etc.

Here's a puzzling thing. It looks like the real time renderers don't need all those gpu cores. Game engines are real time, right? So why do gamers want their mommies to buy them $1000 video cards with 3500 cores for their games? The big cards obviously improve game performance but the game engine doesn't use the gpu cores?

Nvidia's Tesla cards can combine their memories. I think that the gtx cards don't do that.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 04 Jan 2018, 09:48

Because I guess that eevee runs on gpu!
It practically is a game engine! The reason I said 2x 1080 was that gets you 16 gig ram..and that is needed for bigger scenes! They dont even load on 8 gig thats the problem!
Thea is software wise the better solution because its hybrid! You throw a scene at it and it uses the gpu until that reaches the limit and it starts to use the cpu on top! See you dont run out of memory!
Drawback..it sets you back 399$!
But its worth it! What I prefer though in cycles is that its pbr node based shader standard! But you cant have everything Im afraid!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 04 Jan 2018, 18:35

"Would multiple GPUs increase available memory? No, each GPU can only access its own memory." from https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/ ... ering.html I've seen this noted in several places. More cards do add more cores or computing power. Each additional card probably adds overhead so that less power is added with each additional card. I found that adding my gt640 to the gtx1060 is no faster and may be slower. Same for the cpu. Probably best if multiple cards are similar in size/power.

If you have double gtx cards you can test the memory combining ability. Run a "gpu memory burner" benchmark or test big enough to fail on one card. Then try it with two.

I think the tesla cards can combine their memories at least using Nvidia's systems for scientific computing. Those cards aren't worth the money for CG rendering. They are for high accuracy scientific computing.

Thea, yeah baby! I'd get that if I could spend more on toys or if using in business. Thea has a blender plug in so it is easy to use there.

The ti versions have more cores for little more cost than non ti ones. So they are a bargain. A gtx1070 ti is only a little less powerful than a gtx1080 non ti.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 05 Jan 2018, 14:30

No it actualy does reason I will get 2x 1080 and not expensive ti version!
It also works with 2x 1060 with 6 gig!
Only deal is you need a mainboard that supports double card use! Greetings!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 Jan 2018, 18:57

Evidence? I suspect that you will be disappointed. I hope you are right. There are always new things and it would be great to get this ability with our regular cards. When you have two cards please report back with the results of your tests of combined memory.

People ask the gpu memory question all over the web and are constantly told that the memory is not shared for the gtx/gaming cards.
"The available memory for rendering will not be the sum of all the memory installed on the cards, but will be limited to the vRAM of the smallest card. In other words: adding a new GPU with 8GB to a system that has an old GPU with only 2GB, will make the new GPU only use 2GB of vRAM."
-- https://blender.stackexchange.com/quest ... imultaneou

Expensive? None of these things are cheap. The ti versions of the 10xx series aren't about memory. Most have the same memory as the non ti ones. EVGA 1070 non-ti $520 1920 cores = $0.27 per core. EVGA 1070 ti $540 (only $20 more) 2432 cores = $0.22 per core. They have the same memory and the same base clock rate (the non ti has a faster boost rate). The 1070ti is a better deal than the non-ti. It is similar for 1060's and 1080's ti vs. non-ti. If you have over $1000 to spend for two cards adding $40 for all those extra cores is not a significant expense.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Jan 2018, 17:58

No its a technical fact that they share the ram!
That doesnt stack up in speed thats the point!
It stacks up in scene size!!!!!! The scenes that I want to load dont load in 8 Gig if they are big!
Some do bit many dont! If I use 2x 1060 or 2x 1070
then I can use and build the scene I want even if the are a tad slower the a 1080 or 1080ti bit they load in 16 Gig! In the more expensive one piece 1080ti the scene doesnt load! But only if the main board is made for it! The newer versions for series 8 processors are....many of them! Also the MSI boards are! Alternative is a dual core grafic card board but they are even more expensive ! Thats the story!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 06 Jan 2018, 18:11

https://www.lifewire.com/multiple-graphics-cards-834088

Here is the full story and the technology is called crossfire for AMD or SLI for the other system!
Mainboard and software has to support the technology! So ask for an SLI compliant motherboard!!!!!
Blender and cycles support it! Eevee should also!
Thea definitly does so does Keyshot and Octane !

Dont forget that you want an SLI card.. since most of these are not made for CL but for Cuda..so your into the Nvidia.. SLI world!

Here is the list of SLI compatible cards..
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/techno ... orted-gpus

Here are the SLI compatible Nvidia mainbords..!
http://www.nvidia.com/object/sli-ready- ... oards.html

further read and WiKI..!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Link_Interface

Here is another awsome way of addressing multiple gpus in Cycles and Blender over GPUBOX!

https://youtu.be/atdcvMA0ULg

Here is the dicussion on Iray! It does use all cores but somewhat doesnt simultanously use shared memory!!!

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion ... ng-in-iray

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 06 Jan 2018, 20:41

Now I'm concerned for you. Your wishful thinking will cause you spend a considerable amount of money but not get the benefit you hope for. It is well known that SLI does not combine the memory of the cards connected. https://www.nvidia.com/object/slizone_ask_mmm013.html ... and many others all over the web.

None of the links you provided (or the links I followed from there) support your hypothesis. It takes a huge amount of wishful thinking to see even the slightest vague hope of that in the ones that aren't completely irrelevant.

Multi cards operating as in that Daz post is normal. There is nothing new or surprising there. It is the way cycles works too. It is the way it really works.

On another note: Someday when prices go down, probably not soon, I might get a gtx1070ti. Anyone who might want to buy my msi gtx 1060 3gb then?

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 07 Jan 2018, 19:07

It depends on the programing of the render engines!
Cycles does so does Thea! Iray doesnt and many othwrs dont either! Thea even is programmed to use all Ram it gets the the cpu ram! Its the only one that distributes the workload on the gpu and the cpu together! I know people who alteady have the combination and it works!
Iray simply doesnt support it in the code!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 07 Jan 2018, 21:12

You are a victim of self deception.

On the subject of my experiments:
This talk of gpu memory made me wonder about the limits of my card with 3gb. Tests with Daz showed that I could add 24 gen 8 figures, no instances, high poly, no hair, no clothes, before crashing during iray render.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 07 Jan 2018, 22:11

Yup...?What does that have to do with big scenes with tons of instances..?As long as one is rendering on cpu.. no problem..it loads into the ram blocks until those are full..which they mostly arent..and then uses the HD or SSD..! On the gpu you cant do that for realtime....! Big scenes dont work..so do large renders cause trouble...!...
You will see pretty soon what runs on 8 Gig and what needs 16...

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 07 Jan 2018, 22:40

https://youtu.be/XCgGLzeDiwo

or this one..
https://youtu.be/sj2T6NfMih8

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Jan 2018, 03:04

My test above is only about my curiosity regarding how much I could get into my card's vram. Your talk of huge scenes inspired my curiosity but the test was obviously not intended to test the combined memory hypothesis. It is strange that you thought was.

Yes, if you have a lot of ram then cycles, iray, probably others can render a huge scene by using only the cpu and ram. No gpu's. No combined memory. Slow. Very slow if virtual memory (the HD) is engaged but would probably still work. My vram test of my card had nothing to do with cpu rendering.

Let me be sure I understand your claim. You claim that there is a way existing now, for gtx cards not teslas, to use the memories of multiple gpu's as one big memory for renders? For example, two 8gb cards could behave as one 16gb memory and render a scene needing more that 8gb? Is that correct or do I misunderstand what you claim?

I'm tired of discussing this since you have provided zero evidence of such combined memory. If this much-wanted ability currently existed it would be "front page news" all over the CG world. It would be easy to find many articles about it. Yet it is not and you have only provided links to things that don't support that hypothesis.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 08 Jan 2018, 10:11

Finis! It is front page news! I will dig through all the articles that I read the past few months in the 3d mags! There is a whole new development on 2 and 3 gpu card coming! One has 16 gig ram at the moment! They are around 3000$ each but they are going to revolutionize the industry ! Realtime render is here to stay! If I have time I will copy out all snippets that actually talk about it...!
Dont be so.....when I come and show you guys what the industry is up to...! I posted a link to a nodal texture creator that was free back then!that was 10 years ago!!!! It was called mapzone..its now Substance..!https://www.awportals.com/aw/archives/t ... read_1951/
Its now subscrption....and is defact Industry standard..its Substance! Substance designer and Substance Painter! Greetings

Ps: Look at this.. its the latest from the trade fair and new pro render with Radeon dual pro card on latest C4d rel 19!
https://youtu.be/XdRKgT8BOIg

https://www.blendernation.com/2017/06/2 ... available/

Just because we are just a few select here shouldnt let us be on a current page!!!

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 08 Jan 2018, 11:41

https://youtu.be/F18AwaQWpVY

Cycles natively doesnt even support Pascal.. but there are so many hacks.. that a lot is possible and the people are coming up with solutions...!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 08 Jan 2018, 16:10

There's plenty of interesting CG news but none of it is combined memory.

Currently an expensive system from Nvidia using tesla cards does have combined memory ability. Today's high end is tomorrow's low end so hopefully we will have this in the future. Is it here now? I propose that it is not since you are unable to produce even one piece of evidence that it is.

Not one of the things you have presented has had anything to do with combined memory. It is disturbing that you believe the things you have provided are evidence showing that is exists now. Misunderstand one or two things sure. Misunderstand zillions of things? Something is wrong.

I thought I would ignore your links/evidence after you claimed that Keyshot can do that. Keyshot is a cpu only renderer. But, you probably meant some other one so I foolishly kept looking at at your links. I wanted to find it. I want this to be true. But there was nothing. Absolutely zero supporting evidence in anything you have presented. This shows that your research on this is not worthy of consideration.

Why don't you contact tech support at some companies and ask them if their products can do the combined memory thing? I predict that you will ask questions worded so they will think you mean combined compute power and answer "yes" which you will then believe means "yes" to combined memory. You would do that subconsciously to deceive yourself.

I see how confused you are and the awesome power of wishful thinking.

You read about combined computing power and think that means combined memory. Wishful thinking but some descriptions of systems/software do have imprecise statements such as "use multiple gpu's". I can see how that could inspire hope but any reasonable person would then seek a definitive statement to determine the meaning of the vague statement. I did and found nothing about combined memory.

You seem to think that using multiple gpu's and maybe also the cpu for rendering is new. It is not. Iray, cycles and others have done this for a while. Select the devices you want to use for a render and it combines their computing power to render faster. No memory combination.

You are now the boy who cried wolf. The 100% failure rate means your research on this is not worthy of consideration. It is my fault that I wasted time by looking at it beyond the fist thing or two. I was applying wishful thinking. Hoping it was true despite the complete lack of supporting evidence. "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 08 Jan 2018, 18:11

I know that keyshot is cpu only..! But it does the amount of memory! Thats all ...!
But I know there are differences in software..!
Prorender as an example is totaly different then the others.. !
Furryball explanes pretty well that it can use multiple gpu but doesnt sum up memory!
But that is not true for every implimentation!
Its down to the implimentation in the software!
Normally they are not even SLI enabled and actually you should turn off SLI because it slows down the system!
But whatever..!
I felt the kind of aggression from your side for some time!
Sorry to waste your time! Just tried to be helpfull!
Maybe talk in a few months and come back to the thread here!
Even if we are not of the same opinion!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 09 Jan 2018, 20:20

"Even if we are not of the same opinion!" Yes, don't take my disagreement with you on this to mean I don't respect you in general. You are a good guy. I appreciate your good intentions and enthusiasm.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 10 Jan 2018, 01:28

Yes I do same to you! Greetings!
Here is the keynote speech to CES from Intel!
We are heding at least into some very interesting times! Please look at it to the end..! Its a pretty big step in tech just ahead of us!
https://youtu.be/8lbM5vsqJd8

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 10 Jan 2018, 18:27

Busy now. I'll look at that when I have spare time. You should make your own thread for your tech news.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 21 Jan 2018, 02:22

Trouble Embedding Videos - Solved

I had trouble getting youtube and vimeo embedded videos to work in Firefox for a Joomla website. This is what I discovered. Other script or ad blockers and other browsers probably have similar things.

NoScript

You must let these scripts run:
vimeo.com
vimeocdn.com
youtube.com
googlevideo.com (This script activates when you press play on a youtube video. If you usually block it then it won't appear in NoScript to be allowed until you have pressed play.)

Firefox

You must use the basic anti-tracking block list instead of strict or set exceptions for yoututbe and vimeo. Meaning they get to track.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Feb 2018, 00:12

I've been working on projects that could become other businesses or some extra income and haven't had time to learn more Blender or do CG. Maybe I can do a quick one for the challenge.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 16 Feb 2018, 03:36

Regex Rex

^(?=[A-Za-z0-9\~\!\@\#\^\%\*\_\-\+\.]{9,25}$)(?=(?:[^A-Z]*[A-Z]){2})(?=(?:[^a-z]*[a-z]){2})(?=(?:[^0-9]*[0-9]){2})(?=(?:.*[\~\!\@\#\^\%\*\_\-\+\.]){2})(?!.*(.)\1\1)

Must have 9 to 25 characters from the specified set including at least 2 each of upper case, lower case, numerals, and the allowed symbols. No triple repeats. AA is ok, AAA is not. Probably will change numeral and symbol to one each.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 16 Feb 2018, 15:39

Yeaahhh...you're going to have to include a "Forgot Password?" link because I'll never remember THAT.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 16 Feb 2018, 23:11

spacekdet wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 15:39 Yeaahhh...you're going to have to include a "Forgot Password?" link because I'll never remember THAT.

P@ssWord-123

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 28 Feb 2018, 02:41

The gas company people used their elctro-smelling sniffer thing and gas was leaking from my near my gas meter. It is on my side so I have to pay for repairs. No gas until then.

spacekdet · Post by **spacekdet** » 28 Feb 2018, 03:22

Black iron pipe, yellow teflon tape (plus a little paste to grease the skids), 2 large monkey wrenches, probably a persuader, lefty-loosey, righty-tighty.
Test with soapy water mixture.
In the meantime, eat beans.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Mar 2018, 04:14

They turn my gas off and now it decides to be freezing at night. @Spacekdet, maybe.

Not in time for the sports challenge. Grass modeled in Blender and grass particles in Blender. Render in Daz/Iray. Have to find what happened to the grass UV.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 01 Mar 2018, 17:43

Great. No Gas, no heater, freezing last night, and I'm sick. Plenty of stuff I should do but I can't think. Maybe I'll fool with CG when I'm not unconscious from cold medicine.

Something ordinary, normal, and sane will help: https://vimeo.com/225133231 (there's a couple more of those there).

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 02 Mar 2018, 09:09

what is the temp at your location? you live in warm environment, do you? where was it? like texas or something?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 Mar 2018, 18:09

@Bitkar I'm here in the US state of New Mexico which is not the country of Mexico. Born in east Texas (hot and humid). Last two nights freezing (32f, 0c). Day temps have been better this winter. Sierra Blanca was only blanca these last few weeks. Expected high today is toasty for March 72F (22C)! Prediction for chilly nights into April though and that's not good for the mowing business.

I live in a basin in mountains at 4400ft (1341 meters) altitude in the Chihuahuan (chee-wa-wan) desert. Hot in summer but altitude means cold in the winter. A desert is defined by lack of precipitation not temperature (Antarctica). Conditions here create persistent high pressure zones which have little rain. We have rain shadow from the mountains here too. Another feature of deserts is the air is very clear and dry so ground heat easily radiates into space creating a large difference between day and night temps.

...

Wonderful. The plumbers inspected it and nothing meets regulations so this will be expensive. I'll do as much of it as I can.

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 06 Mar 2018, 15:07

that was a detailed description :) Thanks for the metric system btw. Not an easy environment for living. Totally not good to be in 0C with no heating for more than 1-2 nights.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 26 Mar 2018, 18:20

Still no gas. Will call a new plumber today.

Motion capture: I'm looking for very cheap equipment and software to do facial and body motion capture at reasonable quality. The results must be usable in Blender. Suggestions?

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 27 Mar 2018, 20:50

Yup! The easiest way to do it is either with Kinekt or with one or more web cam..systems! Realy good is iclone..it can do that and you can see your charakter move while you grab! Second pretty good solution is ipisoft!
There is a freeware solution for kinekt too! Google that!
I would not get one of those suits or the equipment for Iclone! The sensor can break very easily!
https://youtu.be/Q_2N_IthX74

http://ipisoft.com

https://youtu.be/1UPZtS5LVvw

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 27 Mar 2018, 23:12

Thanks Rayman! Those have possibilities for the free or cheapest versions. Freeware or closer to it would be a better price for me. Kinect or regular cameras (preferred) is probably as cheap as sensors get. I'll look for the free ware one. Maybe Blender can record the motion from the free or cheapest versions and store it as bvh or some popular mocap format. Best to store in a popular format for use in different programs but Blender is the target program so it's good enough to just have Blender animation as storage.

Any more cheap mocap stuff out there?

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 29 Apr 2018, 20:29

Blender Cycles will be able use the cpu along with gpu's. You can get pre-release versions of 2.79 and 2.8 with this feature here https://builder.blender.org/download/

This is not a new thing but there is good news. Iray could use any combination of cpu and cuda based gpus at least as long as it has been available in Daz. Cycles could use combinations of gpu's. Previously adding a slow gpu or cpu with a fast card made a render slower not faster. Now adding a slow device doesn't add much speed but often helps rather than hinders. I'd guess that other renderers are ahead of Cycles on this. This development doesn't improve the memory situation. The scene still must fit in the smallest memory of all the devices used.

Here are my speed tests for Cycles. CPU: AMD fx8320, GPU: GTX 1060, GPU GT 640
The test scene is my Glass Waterfall.

Code: Select all

Tile	Hardware	Time
Size
16	640+1060+cpu	1:09.90
16	1060+cpu	1:15.87
256	1060		1:18.36
256	640+1060	1:35.06
16	cpu		4:28.08

256	1060+cpu	4:1.23	Tile size test

Observations

It mostly behaved as intuition would favor which is more hardware equals more speed. Surprising that 640 + 1060 was still slower than just 1060 as in the past. The tile size test confirms what I read. With cpu + gpu use the small tiles preferred by the cpu.

Conclusion

With a very fast cpu this could be beneficial but there is still little speed gained by adding slow devices such as a regular cpu or slow card. I will still leave the cpu out of renders so I can do other things while rendering and use the small card to run the screen so the large one is free to render. The seconds saved per frame could be valuable for an animation.

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 02 May 2018, 20:17

Your conclusion is correct if you want to use a amaller card with a very good one...its the best thing to do is run the screen etc on the small one and run the program on the big gpu abd use the full memory of the big card!
What gpu plus cpu is concerned..it depends on the app! It depends how its programmed! Thea has a very smart way of splitting....!
BUT gpu rendering isnt the holy grail!
How efficient a program uses the resources!
A very good example is the clever use in Clarisse!
It even detects duplicate poly structures.. and treats them as instances..and all in realtime and cpu!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 02 May 2018, 23:26

Yeah, I prefer intelligent and creative solutions to problems. Even better if you can then throw power at it too! Here is a creative solution some Blender folks do for animation: They start two instances of Blender on the computer. One renders frames with the cpu and the other with the gpu.

Claeisse costs a considerable amount of money as do most of the really good CG programs so they aren't options for me or most hobbyists. Us hobbyists will have to wait but the new tech will appear in the cheap or free things later on.

On throwing hardware at rendering ... My 1060 renders about 4x faster than my cpu. Several current cpu's are much faster than mine and then there are high end ones with many cores. I'll bet a $1000 cpu can render as fast as a $1000 gtx 1080 plus it is good for general purpose computing. Still nice to render on the gpu and have the cpu free for other things.

On throwing even more hardware at rendering ... I looked into render farms. Mega money. The cheapest I found (the Copernicus machine in Poland) would cost up to $2700 to render 36000 frames for a 10 minute animation. Two free render farms had secrecy/nda problems (there is none) and Intellectual Property problems (all your stuff "are" belong to them, or rather to everyone).

RAYMAN · Post by **RAYMAN** » 03 May 2018, 15:26

The problem is I would like to know what kind of things you want to do! It very much depends!
It all depends on the poly count.....what you can fake etc.....! I didnt post very much lately because Im learning how to streamline my 3d work so that I can get the most out of what I have and what I already own! Its not only about software and hardware ..it is in some cases but its all more about workflow.... its about level of detail etc.. etc...!
You can speed up you workflow considerably by baking the lighting and doing things in realtime etc!
Even with the free Blender!!!
This site is good for getting also advice on shaving off tons and tons of rendertime!!!
You just say...what you want to do...not in detail just..... the tech you want to use and achive.....there are tons of solutions!
By the way Clarisse is free for download and personal use... and its one of those.. you learn it now and pay the indie per year fee once you gain money kind of contract.. just like Houdini!
I think you need to get your maths right.. 10 minutes is 600 seconds.. at 30fps thats 18000 frames! A good render engine can do a render every 5 seconds...! Thats doable at home! Its even mor doable if you work like with a program like vue to create your landscapes as backdrops and hdris for enviromental lighting and bake the textures and run the animations almost in realtime!!!!! It works well Ive been through that! The price is feasable too! You can do your final renders inside Blender either with eevee or with cycles or with luxrender..all depending! Get Windows 10 and run Prorender in realtime...! So many free options that do the trick! Even Daz studio itself is an option if you use the right things as backdrops and bake!!!!
Vue has become very cool the past few months because since 2017 you can export everything out of the app...! HDR.... mountains...
trees..... whole scenes into blender... whole painted ecosystems as instances into Blender.....! Wasnt possible 2 Years ago! You should be set with 500$ to get your animes done without an external render farm!

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 03 May 2018, 23:19

60 fps is 36,000 frames. Happy if I can get that but compromises or sacrifices are often what gets a project done. 30 fps is perfectly good so I'll be happy with that if needed. Eevee or other realtime renderers are probably best for most things I want to do.

You are right, there is a bunch of good software and some is free or cheap. Prorender looks great! I look forward to getting it when I can. It has a Blender add-on too.

Right about using software wisely. You can get a good picture without so much time. I fooled with the Blender pavilion benchmark settings and reduced render time to 1/3 with little loss of quality. And that's just with render settings. Add the good techniques you suggest and a scene like that could be really fast.

For a project with multiple people the rendering could be divided between all participants. Each would render a set of frames.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 05 May 2018, 17:27

My first underwater video. These fish are in a customer's pond.

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 May 2018, 04:10

Learning about volumetrics in Blender Cycles.

You can add volumetric nodes to shaders for the world or for a mesh object. Sun lights don't work for the world shader but do with meshes. This scene crashed my gpu driver and then Blender with gpu rendering but worked in cpu mode. Thirteen minutes. A musgrave texture is input to the volumetric scatter and absortion nodes. That gives the whispy effect but much increases render time. I think the homogeneous effect could be better done with a depth pass and post processing. The whispy effect might be better done with the smoke simulation.

Update: It will GPU render with the finished render thing (F12 or the button). It is changing the settings while the viewport is in render mode, and using volumetrics, that crashes in gpu mode. Replaced with image with brighter light.

bitkar · Post by **bitkar** » 11 May 2018, 09:35

I hope to check out AMD pro render for Blender... could be better than cycles. At least for Radeon owners (tho it should maybe work for nvidia, not sure)

Finis · Post by **Finis** » 11 May 2018, 16:34

I want to try Prorender too. At this time windows 10 is required to use Nvidia gpus. AMD is good at hype but Prorender is certainly more advanced than Cycles. (They are all good at hype of course.) My concern will be how well its add on integrates it with Blender.

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